Jays Ready To Throw In The Towel

Burnett, Eckstein, Lind for Kemp and Laroche/Lu. Heck they could throw Stairs in there somehow. Is that fair?

Too bad AJ is opting out for sure, if McGowan or Marcum goes down it'd be nice to have him here for 2 more years.

Also, Jason Donald from Phillies and another B prospect for Burnett?

I find it very hard for a team to sign Burnett. With that tricky opt out clause of his its a very risky move. The Phils should try to aquire Bedard...he will do well with a NL move. If they could do it without Carraso they would be in great shape.

Lets see the Cards jump in and get Burnett, and make this NL Central thing completely nuts!!!

Remember, if Burnett pitches terrible-he DOESNT opt out and your stuck with a crappy Burnett again for lots of money. He is only opting out if he pitches well enough that he would get a raise from someone.

Lets say, just for fun, that the Cards got Burnett and the Phils got Bedard. Would that finally shift that balance to the NL? Thats 4 really, really good pitchers...

Sabathia
Harden
Bedard
Burnett

All from AL to NL

Yeah, AL is running out of pitchers, lol.

I'd still like to see the Brewers make the move.
Burnett + Eckstein for Hardy.

that is a lot of good arms switching leagues. if it werent for that stupid clause in burnetts' contract i would be all for getting him. i think most gms in general r control freaks and really dont like that helpless feeling his contract would offer. also i keep hearing bad stuff about his personality and thats not cool. we like good people and good players in st louis. the cards need a healthy wainwright, carp, and mulder. even 2 out of 3 would be awesome. carp, wainwright, lohse, and then some combination of mulder, wellemeyer, looper, and piniero. other two go in the bullpen. just give me damaso marte. dude is exactly what we need. hes filthy i tell u.

and the proposed burnett/eckstein for hardy deal that is interesting. the brewers would absolutely be going for it and with him they probably have the best rotation in all of baseball. also eckstein would give them a leadoff guy(weeks more like a 2). on the other hand hardy is better in almost every way than eckstein and both him and burnett will walk(well most likely) after this year. next year would be bad for the brewers but what would they have 8 of the first 50 picks in the draft? its interesting.

A few things:

1 Gillick wants Bedard ? Gillick is like Gene Michael talking about the psychological make up of winning ball players. Bedard won't pitch beyond 90 pitches! Bedard is no winner. The Mariners must be a bigger joke than I had thought, why trade this guy when you gave up the sun and the moon for him? I know that Philly needs pitching but Bedard the nutcase? Burnett can give Jay fans headache BUT he was on the 2003 Marlins. AJ is a better fit for the Phils.

2 The AJ/Eckstein trade for Hardy is absolutely wrong. The Jays can trade Eck to the Dodgers for a decent prospect and trade AJ for a gaggle of players to the Yanks,Bosox,Cards or Phils. Ricciardi wants to keep his job so this AJ Burnett trade has to be a doozy like the Harden and Sabathia deals. Let me make this clear for people who root for teams outside the AL East and think that some team that never wins or even is in the playoffs can take players willy nilly for a song. JP Ricciardi's head is on the chopping block AND he can't do any favors when the Bosox and Yanks are in the playoffs every year AND winning World Series. Toronto fans are in the Northeast and we have the most vocal and passionate baseball fans in this part of the world. JP is not giving away AJ so the Cubbies or Brew crew can go to the World Series, he will get the best deal for his team. The Jays need a very good prospect near ready major league shortstop, some pitching ( a starter and reliever) and another bat. The Jays can go to Boston and the Yankees and play that game,but with these other teams that have scraps left? Maybe Philly ,the Cards and LA, BUT a very big maybe. I wouldn't be surprised if Cashman breaks down and gets Burnett. That cost would be high but he can pitch in the AL East. JP also has a cozy relationship with the Red Sox so that looks like a possibility.

i dont understand as a jays fan why wouldn u want jj hardy? hes a cheap, at least average shortstop. u give up a good pitcher with a bad contract and eckstein who quite simply doesnt have much trade value. burnett does not have the same trade value as a harden or sabathia because of that stupid contract and because hes not as good. i think jj hardy would be a good return. if anything bad deal for the brewers. if the jays want an average, overpaid pitcher on their roster they can just trade burnett and sign a free agent starter this offseason. there is no way to get a good young shortstop without giving up a lot. maybe the jays can acquire hardy and trade him to the cards for a gaggle of prospects. seeing as the brew crew wont trade with the cards and i would like to have hardy that would make sense. anderson/duncan/reyes for hardy. done deal. we would be delighted to have him.

Well if the Jays don't make the playoffs at least JP gets fired (hopefully). As for trading Burnett, I would wait until a couple weeks before the trade deadline, that's when teams that have playoff hopes get desperate. I don't expect Burnett to land us a good SS but maybe some good prospects. I hope JP doesn't decide to rebuild because I think we are possible contenders if land a good DH and a good SS.

What about an AJ Burrnett to the Cards for Bryan Anderson and Tyler Herron deal? Burrnett is like Harden, just not as good when healthy. So I don't see why the Cards should give up more.

The Jays need to build around a group of top tier talent. If they do a Burrnett deal there system looks better.

C - J.P. Arencia, Bryan Anderson
1B - Curtis Thigpen
2B - John Tolisano
3B - Kevin Ahrens
SS - Justin Jackson
OF - Travis Snider, Ryan Patterson

Pitching - Brett Cecil, Ricky Romero, David Purcey, Tyler Herron.

Still not an all-star class system, but looks better with more depth.

LILLIBRIDGE [ATL] FOR ROY J/K AJ BURNETT TOR NEEDS A SS WOULD ALSO FREE UP MONEY TO GO AFTER C.C. OR TEIXEIRA IN OFF SEASON

butchie22

Burnett won't get the 'doozy' of players like CC or Harden, plain and simple.

Eckstein is rotting away on the Jays bench, you think you're going to get a lot for him?

AriGoldisaG, I hope you know Curtis Thigpen is projected to be a catcher not a 1B. As for Harden being better than Burnett, it is debatable. I don't think the Jays would go for the deal considering we have Diaz and Thigpen for the catcher position and I have no idea who Herron is.

BA put Thigpen as a C/1B, considering I'm a Bay Area fan, I don't consider myself an expert on the Blue Jays but I was just putting out what I saw. I don't think it's debateable if Burnett is as good as Harden. He's not. Because Harden is just plain lights out when healthy. When healthy Burnett is very good, bot lights out. Tyler Herron was the 9th ranked prospect in the Cardinals system by BA, entering the season.

"Lets say, just for fun, that the Cards got Burnett and the Phils got Bedard. Would that finally shift that balance to the NL? Thats 4 really, really good pitchers..."

you forget about Haren and Santana. That makes 6 of the best pitchers in the AL being moved to the NL since last season.

This is how it goes: the team stinks, Ricciardi stinks, the owners stink, and the fans stink.

I would completely disagree.
The team doesn't stink, it just has unfulfilled offensive potential. The owners don't stink, because they give a LOT of extra money to JP Retardi whenever he asks for it. And the fans don't stink because the Jays have a whole country and many Americans as a fanbase.

It's just JP that stinks. End of story.

that deal proposal sounds interesting for the cardinals. if it werent for that funny clause and his underachieving season it would be awesome. anderson has real value to someone. i dont know the jays system but hes a good prospect. herron not much value but nice throw in. i wonder if burnett could choose to either opt out or exercise his two years now rather than later? maybe the cards offer him extra money to do so. i just know mozeliak and he wants to be certain and in control next year. one stipulation of getting glaus(from toronto coincidentally) was glaus exercised his player option. he wants to be in control and know whats going on and i dont blame him. still it might go down anyways.

And as for the post, with both M&M boys out, our need for a shortstop being VERY apparent, and our position in the standings, the Jays are definitely sellers, IMO.
Burnett can go to the Cardinals for some minor league depth, and finally bring up Russ Adams for a chance. It's not like the Jays have anything to lose anymore.

A staff of Halladay, McGowan, Marcum, Litsch, and Parrish or Purcey would probably take this team farther than Burnett with his 8 losses so far could.

JP Retardi needs to learn that he can't just bring in random players (Ohka, Scutaro, Wilkerson, Mench, Stewart, etc), because they need a revival, not a rebuild. Lind everyday was a smart choice, albeit by Gaston. Our outfield would have been stable with Matt Stairs as a 4th outfielder. Barajas and Zaun behind the plate are okay, but it would have been smarter switching Hills and Ecksteins positions. That way Eck would be on the DL.

Lyle Overpay and Scott Rolen-in- Money aren't what's hindering this team, it's the instability and the lack of a clear goal. The Yankees knew what they were doing when they brought up Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy. The BoSox built around Manny & Papi with free agents and homegrown talent, because we all know that they couldn't have made it without Ellsbury sparking them (I mean that in the best sense possible). The Rays had a plan, and even though it took many years, their plan is finally working out.

We need a plan, and the one JP proposed when he first came around, the one about surrounding homegrown talent with free agents didn't work out the way JP envisioned it, mainly because of his own bad decisions.

For the idiots calling out JP, he has NEVER made a bad trade.

Cardinals fans - the Jays don't need another C prospect. Arencibia is tearing up AA, and Robinzon Diaz has recently passed Thigpen on the C depth chart. There are more guys you don't need to hear about past those 3.

Also, Scott Campbell is considered the Jays best 2B prospect, not John Tolisano. Thigpen may end up as a utility infielder, maybe at 2B like Biggio did.

c prospect? anderson is going to the futures game for the 2nd year in a row and i think hes only 22 or 23. maybe the jays dont need him but dont downgrade anderson. him and rasmus r real deal prospects.

Burnett's increasing his value every time he steps on the mound. In a couple weeks, the deal will have to include Pujols, minimum.

I think the Jays could go after
Teixiera, Furcal, and Bedard already said he's signing there this offseason. I could see some nice weapons coming to the Jays. Well, if Furcal stays healthy and Bedard actually does good then I do.

Donald and Antonio Bastardo seems fair for both sides

C prospect = catching prospect. He may be good, but he isn't needed. JP would rather hope for the 2 picks from Burnett, especially with McGowan injured now, then settle for anything less than his demands.

CUBBIES2008
Bedard has another year in Seattle. Also, Jays interest went from sky high, to almost nothing, due to his performance, but more importantly his attitude.

"Burnett, Eckstein, Lind for Kemp and Laroche/Lu. Heck they could throw Stairs in there somehow. Is that fair?"

In a word, no.

But you were just kidding anyway, right?

And it's Hu, not Lu.

Even Colletti's not that stupid.

Burnett is also an awful guy in the clubhouse.

That trade would be an all-time bonehead trade.

"he Jays need to build around a group of top tier talent. If they do a Burrnett deal there system looks better.

C - J.P. Arencia, Bryan Anderson
1B - Curtis Thigpen
2B - John Tolisano
3B - Kevin Ahrens
SS - Justin Jackson
OF - Travis Snider, Ryan Patterson"

this is a terrible estimation of the jays top prospects. Cooper at 1st, who by the way just got promoted cause he's tearing the cover off the ball. Campbell at 2nd Patterson I would say is a failed Prospect he's like 26 now. Also you forgot about Diaz and Thigpen of coarse. Eric Eiland might be worth putting up there also.

my fault. yes that would make sense. i would like burnett but thats our big chip to trade. we have other talent that the jays might want but i dont think the cards want to give up much unless they r blocked like anderson. heck rasmus is blocked and hes certainly not going anywhere.

"For the idiots calling out JP, he has NEVER made a bad trade."

I'm not "calling out" JP for making bad trades. I'm criticizing him for his horrible free agent signings, minus Ryan.

Why not a Duncan, Reyes, and Ryan trade for Burnett? I would think that would be more than enough for the Jays...and I'm neither a fan of the Jays or the Cards. Just seems to make sense to me. Jays get a guy that can probably at least put up the numbers Overbay is (Duncan is really a 1st basemen), a solid pitcher with upside, and a SS prospect who could end up helping.

All that and they would still save money as well.

"I'm criticizing him for his horrible free agent signings, minus Ryan."

Which?! The only questionable move was Thomas' signing, but he was coming off a big year and the team needed a DH. His mistake there was how the team handled the Thomas situation, but JPs trades and signings have been rock solid.

Aduncaroo, The Jays have no use for Duncan (Wells, Rios, Lind, Snider) and Reyes and Ryan are trash. Get real.

I still think Duncan puts up better numbers than Overbay at 1st base over a full season.

Also, while Ryan could be trash, Reyes isn't. He has a 3.02 ERA in AAA this year and just needs a change of scenery. Check out his minor league numbers, they are pretty sick. Any team making a trade with the Cards that doesn't snatch him up is absolutely foolish.

Guitar Hero, i think you grossly overestimate Burnett's value. though there have been questions recently regarding kemp's abilities, he is still one of the better players on the dodgers. then you throw in laroche, one of their top prospects, and it gets a little ridiculous. lind hasn't played much, eckstein has been mediocre at best, and burnett has been consistently inconsistent, as we have come to expect. yeah his stuff is filthy and he strikes out a lot of batters, but he still has an ERA over 5 and doesn't show up other start (whether due to injury or just incompetence). no for all you aj burnett apologists, i am not saying he is a bad pitcher. he simply is not worth the dodgers' brightest pieces for the future (outside of kershaw). regarding the transition of AL pitchers to the NL, of the 6 pitchers mentioned only 1 made it on the all-star roster this year. now many of you will say that oh they're just having off years. however, many AL pitchers had breakout seasons this year (lee, duchscherer, e. santana, saunders, floyd) forcing several worthy names to sit out the game (king felix, dice-k, beckett, shields, etc.). the point being there are still many good pitchers in the AL, and several of the names you list are questionable. while haren, santana and sabathia are studs, i don't trust bedard, harden, or burnett for anything.

show up *every* other start

Well, 92-93, the Burnett signing, which is what this whole post is about, is probably one of his better signings.
Let's see, he had Ohka, Thompson, Zambrano, Clayton, Stewart (over Johnson, no less), Eckstein, Batista, and Coskie come to mind.

But why are we arguing when we are both Jays fans? o.O
We both want what's best for the team, and my personal opinion is that someone else needs to run the show for a while.

And you have done NOTHING to substantiate your opinion. Ohka/Thomson/Zambrano was a cheap 3 headed monster, hoping one would stick. Clayton was exactly as advertised. Stewart wasn't supposed to be starting, that was Stairs' job in LF. Eckstein has been exactly as advertised. Batista was given an exceedingly reasonable 3 years/$13.1M contract. And he can't predict injury, what happened to Koskie was pure bad luck. Let's blame him for Hill's concussion too because he signed Eckstein.

Eckstein hasn't been exactly as advertised. He was advertised as a starting shortstop who would lead this team alongside Rolen, who has done his job well enough.
And where is Stairs nowadays? He hasn't been getting regular at-bats.
Wilkerson is also subpar, he hasn't helped the offense at all. The "three headed monster" was obviously meant to have two of them stick, because the 4th spot went to Ohka and the 5th to Towers. Both were mediocre.
Those early uncertainties and experiments obviously lost us the first month of our season last year, and then the injuries started kicking in.
Batista had a reasonable contract? He was a back end starter who definitely didn't deserve the money he was getting paid for, going 10-13 in '04, but that wasn't that bad.
Thomas' signing was a given.
Stewart was aging, and despite the great season he had with Oakland, it wasn't smart for JP to cram Stewart in there when Johnson, Stairs and Lind were all probably going to see playing time in LF in 2008.
Coskie was a pretty good signing on JP's part and yes, I must admit that the injury was pure bad luck.

But look at the pile of money Ted Rogers gives him? Even though he had some decent signings, the Jays aren't exactly a small market team, and this was the man who was trained by Beane running us. JP should've been able to at least get us an impact player or two during his time as GM, maybe someone that could've mustered some offense, even some overpaid offense would've been nice.

92-93, I suggest we end our pointless argument because it is obvious that we are both Jays fans, and the topic at hand is AJ Burnett, and because I know I'm going to lose this argument anyway.
Anyway, I am surprisingly drawn to the Burnett/Eckstein for Hardy proposal...

Ohka, Thompson, Zambrano, Clayton, Stewart (over Johnson, no less).

Total cost, roughly $2-$3M.

** And Ohka, Thompson, Zambrano, were all praised as good signings at the time. Low risk, high reward, they just didn't pan out.

yes i think that burnett/eckstein for hardy deal is really good for both. hardy(who has been tearing it up lately) is expendable if escobar is as good as everyone says. the brewers could keep eckstein until they didnt need him anymore(maybe another one year deal at the end of the year) and the brewers would get another real starter because bush certainlt isnt. milwaukee would probably lose burnett but then they would have 10 of the first 50 picks or whatever it would be. maybe milwaukee would sign one of the 3? burnett and eck r basically worthless to the jays anyways and they would get a pretty good young shortstop. this deal really does make sense.

Brewers are too scared about giving up a guy like Hardy and have the fans pissed off. Especially when the return players won't be back as early as next year.

I don't think either Eckstein or Burnett will be type As either...so I don't see that deal happening.

If Burnett pitches a full season he will be a type A.

the brewers have escobar plus they can sign eckstein or one of the 10 or so free agent shortstops in the offseason to a one year deal. the brewers r definitely going for it and this trade would make them better.

sheets
sabathia
burnett
suppan
who cares?(actually parra)

4 man roatation for the playoffs no other team could touch. eck is a former world series mvp. makes sense.