Truth About Deception - Forum

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: A Fool

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:52:15 -0400

Thank you all who have posted on my thread. I have learned so much in the little time since I introduced myself to this website. I have seen so many different perspectives and gained so much from all the sharing done here. For all of us, I am truly sorry for the pain we have all experienced within our marriages/relationships. I don't have the answers. I am struggling to find answers for my own marriage as I speak. I am confident that my answer will be revealed sooner or later and that whatever that answer may be, I will survive. I will make it. Because I know that I am not alone; that I am a good person. This week/weekend has been great for me and us. My H hardly ever gets a weekend off from work but this weekend, he did. I found out that he requested approval to switch with a co-worker so that he may have this weekend off and in exchange, he is now starting a 7-day work week. Saturday, he made reservations to my fave restaurant. He arranged a dozen roses to be delivered to our table and the live band to play "our song" after a personalized dedication he asked them to read aloud. After dinner, we went dancing but we really never did dance much. Instead, we stayed in our "booth" and snuggled and talked. During that time, he would just suddenly hug me so tightly and then look at me and say things like, "I love you so much"; "You are my life and my world"; "I would be nothing without your love" and while saying these things, his eyes were tear-filled and so full of love. And, other things. I saw and felt to the very bottom of my being all the things he couldn't say: that he is truly remorseful; honest and nakedly vulnerable; hopeful yet afraid I will not allow us a second chance; loving in a way that I have never seen/felt from him - a deeper, more mature love. I don't know how to explain it. I just know.... On Easter Sunday, we had a great family day together. After lunch, shopping, and movies, we went home and just hung out together. I saw and felt genuine happiness from all of us. I know that our kids were getting a lil concerned that my H and I were strained and I saw and felt their happiness and relief that things seemed to be better now between us. It was truly a nice weekend. I don't know what the future holds for my marriage. I don't know what my future, as an individual person is either. I just know that I would like him to be with me, as my husband, in every way and in a depth. I take ownership for my part in this betrayal. Admittedly, during that period of time, I was not 100% here for him. I was going through family issues - my parents ended their 30+ yrs. of marriage due to irreconcilable differences (not an affair) - and I was dealing with that. When I think about it, my H would say things to me now and then and I realize now that those things were like cries of help. He told me that he felt lost and alone during that period of time and to be honest, maybe he was. I certainly was too wrapped up in what was going on with my parents. I was wrong, too. I made a mistake, too. I should have put HIM first; HE should have been my priority; I should have been able to pick up on those lil cries of help and would have if I wasn't so wrapped up in other things. I am not saying any of this excuses cheating on a spouse/mate. NOTHING EXCUSES CHEATING. I am just saying that I understand; that I can see where he was coming from; that I made a mistake too by neglecting his needs and maybe even making him feel less important than who and what he really is to me. I just know that I have to give "us" a second chance. This is his first betrayal. This is my first mistake of neglecting him (and our children) for others. Even tho I know that I will survive and make it on my own, it's not about that. It's not a matter of CAN'T; it's a matter of WANT. I WANT to be with him; I WANT him in my life as my mate and partner; I WANT a future side-by-side with him. Right or wrong, I love this man. I want this man. It's not a matter of need. I don't believe in staying within a relationship out of necessity. I just know that I have to be true to myself and I love and want this man in my life and future. That fact has never changed, even after the betrayal. The betrayal deeply hurt; still does. I don't think I will ever forget but I do know that I am on the road to forgiving. Forgiveness for both of our parts in it. And, I can't just dismiss what I have seen and felt from him since the betrayal. I know that he wants and loves me as much as I do him and that that hasn't changed for him, either. I know and feel that he is honestly remorseful and wants so much for me to forgive him, trust him, and not to be wary of him. I know and feel that he honestly hates himself for causing me this pain; causing doubts and fear when none of this was ever there before. I can't explain how I know all of this - I just know. He made a mistake. After all, don't we all? I know that there are some relationships that are better off ending, hopefully as peacefully as possible. I just do not believe my marriage is one of them. Not right now, at least. Hopefully never... Don't get me wrong. I still have bad moments when I feel the panic, the fears, the doubts. I still have the questions that I am not sure I will ever really ever know the answers to about the betrayal. I have even more panic and fear sometimes when I think of the chance I am taking of him committing yet another betrayal. I don't like feeling so vulnerable! There is still some anger there as well. So, like I said, I don't have all the answers. I just know that I will have the answer about my marriage sooner or later. And, whatever that answer may be, I know that by allowing both of us another chance for healing and growth is a prerequisite to me being able to move on - come what may... For now, this is enough. What I see and feel from him and what I know I feel about him is enough. Enough to give "us" a second chance; enough for me to risk getting hurt and betrayed again; enough for both of us to be vulnerable against what the other may do or say that may hurt either of us any more than what we are now. This is our journey. I know it won't be easy but nothing ever really is, right? I have to be true to myself and try. I won't be able to live with myself if I don't. Come what may, I must be able to live with myself first and foremost. So, here I am. Here we are. We are traveling our journey with the hope that we will be stronger, deeper, wiser, more loving, closer, and forever side-by-side. More to follow... Thanks for listening...

Subject: Re:He is a CL; how do I help myself deal with him? - by: Camigram

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:36:10 -0400

IF you work & have insurance there is usually a mental health segment. Call your Human Resources Dept to get that information. IF you do not have insurance call several counselors and decide on 2-3. Most will give you an hour free consultation. Go and see if this is a person you feel comfortable sharing intimate details about your marriage. Not sure what religion you are but reading your Bible will help you to undertand advice (Proverbs has numerous scriptures) and what to do with it. Good Luck in the healing department. However, you cannot force him to get help regarding your marriage no more that you can force a drug addict to go to enter a recovery treatment program, it has to be HIS desire. Your desire should be not to accept his cheating, but to let a couselor and the Word of God help deliver you from this life of agony whether it means separation, divorce or his miraculously changing!!!!

Subject: Re:I'M CALLING OUT FOR HELP!! PLEASE READ!! - by: Camigram

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:24:11 -0400

First, I think that you & your mom should talk....woman to woman. Be extremely loving and truthful about what YOU see and hear. Let your mom know that you are not judging her nor are you looking down on her. Make her feel that you are an adult young woman and that you love her enough to be truthful. Let her know that you are on her side and want the very best life has to offer her. Perhaps you 2 can try and go to college....there are gazillions of dollars out there in scholarships & grants that MAY be one way of you both feeling better about yourselves. OR learn a skill together. Allot of women stay in abusive relationships because they don't feel they have a choice. The man offers a "false" financial security and therefore he feels he can do whatever he wants. Thereby he lies and cheats!!! It takes the same energy that you utilize in accepting abuse (emotional and/or verbal) that can be used to better yourself and allow you to feel empowered not to have to put up with cheating, lying men. Help your Mom to see a way out for herself, and while doing so you can possibly avoid ending up in the same situation some day! Become UNSTUCK women, it take work but it's worth it. Your Mom cannot be an inspiration to her other kids if she cannot inspire herself!!!

Subject: Re:Do I have enough? - by: Camigram

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 10:02:50 -0400

Confrontation is inevitable, unless you enjoy going behind her back and reading all the intimate verbiage that YOU should be receiving. It's one thing to lose your woman to someone of the opposite sex, however when it's a same sex affair, then one must go a bit deeper into the how's & why's. You said you lied about smoking & money issues...do you not feel that it could have been just those lies that HELPED to push her into the arms of another "person"? How do you know she didn't figure out you were lying?? It takes 2 and you must assume your part (or lack thereof) in all of this before confronting her, that way you do not give her an out for throwing something back into your face. You must not point a finger as there are always 3 pointing back at you. But confront before you become an emotional and mental basketcase.

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: Camigram

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 09:52:59 -0400

Not every solution works for every situation. Good luck to you and hopefully your husband will be grateful that you decided to stay and not hurt you again. Just a many wives/girlfriends stay to avoid what they may feel is too much work to get on with their lives and it's easier to stay and continue with the emotional abuse as opposed to leaving an abusive and hurtful siutation and re-building trust and worth in themselves. I hope that is not your reason for staying and again kudos for wanting to make your relationship work. However should it every come to a choice of what to do remember this: Start by doing what's necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible. -- St. Francis of Assisi

Subject: Re:I feel like killing him. - by: Lola

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 08:42:34 -0400

As you will see by reading my post I am the other woman in an affair. So how much weight you put into my advise is up to you. I have this additude about myself because I am guilty of being the other woman. Anyway here are the thoughts that ran through my head. First thought : if she would have told him she heard that he was good in bed would he have slept with her? Second thought : bartender , I know several and they seem to all think the same( NOT ALL), they have this kind of ego thing going on about women wanting them, even though most of the women that are coming on to them are drunk, I wonder if the women were sober and in a grocery store if the same thing would have happened . Third thought : why would he have her phone number and she have his if it was just a test of his package? Good luck to you and I am sorry for this happening to you.

Subject: Re:The Other Woman - by: Marie H

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 08:42:03 -0400

Lola, as you say, you very well may not be looking for sympathy, but a hug for your soul would be good comfort I think. Right? You'll find that in the discovery process of reaching deep within yourself and honoring those weaknesses and bad choices and coming out of this a person with more self respect and self love. That's where that soul hugging thing happens. It's okay to not like some things about ourselves and be disgusted with some really bad choices we've made, as long as we use them as tools to love ourselves even more. You're on the right road, you'll be okay if you protect your own integrity from here on out and in the end find the kind of relationship that reflects back who you really are and the kind of relationship you truly deserve. M

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: betrayed wife

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 08:36:34 -0400

Marie, Thank you so much for you posts! Thank you for making me feel good about moving on with my husband in a world where everyone just expects you to automatically leave when something like this happens. I just hope he doesnt let me down. In life, there are know guarantees..as we all know that. But, I will fight too. In todays world, a wife should fight instead of leave....its too easy to give up and throw it all away. I thank all of you that post your threads...they are so helpful and comforting, knowing I'm not the only one in pain. We are all in the same boat....the wives and the other women....we all get hurt ..we all make mistakes...learning and moving on is the key, but , that is easier said than done! It's too bad we dont take the time to look at the "big picture" and think before we do....so much pain could be avoided.

Subject: Re:The Other Woman - by: Lola

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 08:29:51 -0400

Thank you Marie. I am in no way coming out of this the same woman I was when I got into it. I have been reading books and researching this topic daily trying to understand what just happened. I NEVER thought I would ever do something like this to myself or another person. In the last few weeks after reading a book called " When Good People Have Affairs" it gave me the ability to step back and see the big picture a little more clearly. I think that at the time when this first started and my husband left , sub -conciously it de-valuized the instatute of marriage for me. I was listening to him tell me all of the "problems" in his marriage and I thought how horrible that a wife treat her man like this. In this book it talked about the husbands responcibility in creating the problems. I thought about all the things he had said about her and wondered why she would say and do the things he was claiming and I can see how she has become that way through the things he has told me about his self and the way he has handled the "problems". In fact I remember thinking to myself at times that I would react, or say and do the same thing she was doing. I even tryed to give him advise based on a womans perspective but he would always just say Iv'e tried that . Whatever, I cannot undo what I have done, I am not looking for sympathy, just trying to sort all of this out for myself and move on in my life. This has changed me, I know this for sure. I will come out of this a better person, I know this for sure too.

Subject: Re:The Other Woman - by: Marie H

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 07:35:40 -0400

Lots of conflicts and arguments within yourself going on here. There�s a paradox that comes to mind called Moore�s Paradox. I don�t claim to be a philosopher by any stretch of the imagination, but this �Moore�s Paradox� was one I always remembered because it just seemed to so accurately describe self-conflict and self-denial. To me it describes the conflict between what we state to be true or factual vs. what we unconsciously want to BELIEVE to be true and factual. I remember the example used to explain this being about a person saying it was raining outside (as a statement), but not actually believing it was raining outside. It�s a really good way to support an illusion we created ourselves. If you use your affair in place of rain, it seems to fit, to my recollection of the philosophy course I took anyway. Where I draw the connection in this paradox is that you could justify the action (having the affair) because you didn�t look outside to see if in fact it was raining in the first place (if his marriage was so terrible). To do so and find out in fact his marriage was harmonious, your belief to continue in the affair would be a contradiction within yourself. Better to not to look out the window and find out if your belief is real or not. The illusion would be blown. The paradox. The unconscious conflict. Denial. From all the posts that have been put on this forum regarding affairs, from both sides, it sounds like this �Moore�s Paradox� is the basis for having them in the first place. I don�t know, it was just something that popped into my mind when reading your story. It�s not unique, actually it�s a common dynamic of an affair. So you felt you were free to get involved with this guy because your husband abandoned you. You felt you were free, but quite obviously even to you, he wasn�t. Internally you knew or assumed he had some sort of relationship with his wife, and unconsciously poked around in that area by asking him to define what his relationship was with her (testing the waters). He knew, from your inquisitiveness about his relationship with her, that if he came right out and said - oh, my relationship has it�s up�s and downs, but I love her and I would never do anything to hurt her - that you would be doing an about-face in a hot second. He�d be shooting himself in the foot, so to speak, to own any responsibility in his �unhappy, unfulfilling relationship�. Rather than look at himself and what part he plays in his �unhappy� marriage, much better to have someone (like you) come along and make him happy. Tag you�re it and down the primrose path you go. Sorry to have to say this, but deception was not only on his part, but self-deception was playing a game with your head too. Conflicts all over the place here. But there�s one part here that you may or may not see for what it is. Prior to telling him you wanted him to leave because you couldn�t handle it, you identified to him signs of guilt (that it was wrong what you were doing). Big Red Flag for a spouse that is having an affair. Before that awareness of guilt on your part everything was just fine, but as soon as you insinuate you are having second thoughts about this and have a guilty conscience, something he DOESN�T have, he has to reel you in another way by playing on your obvious attachment and strong emotions for him. By telling him over a period of time that you needed to stop, really what you were doing was subtly giving him ultimatums and he knew it. Cheaters are far from stupid. Funny how they are able to manipulate people. Did it sound odd to you that he would beg you not to end this and leave him, when we was not leaving his wife? One sided, huh? I realize all this doesn�t help you feel any better or comfort the pain you are having, because feelings are feelings�you had them for him. They were real. I�ll tell you something, I have a lot of distain for the ACT of cheating and the pain affair partners cause the spouse by choosing to cross the moral code of having an affair with a married person. But in situations where emotions (and usually the physical connection that ensued) get involved because the affair spouse deceived and manipulated their affair partner, I have some compassion. They are people too. We all make mistakes, that�s a fact. None of our hands are clean. I do think that some (emphasis �some) affair partners do feel the same hurt and pain that the betrayed spouse feels. Yes, they brought most of that on themselves to begin with, but the hurt and pain is still real to them. No doubt this isn�t the only couples relationship you�ve ever had, not counting your estranged husband, so it stands to reason, it�s not the first time you felt the fallout of the loss of a relationship. The difference here is that you were manipulated, played with, and deceived. You were degraded and used. And, to boot, it was all intentional. More than likely this guy has disconnected with you and retreated back to his wife because you would no longer play by the same rules as he wanted to play by. It didn�t work for him anymore. Sadly for his wife, you won�t be the first Other Woman in this man�s life. He will lay low for a while probably, send his wife flowers, take her to dinner, go on vacations and have a good time, priming the stage so he can �not be happy and feel unfilled� again�until another Other Woman comes along. It�s what they do. It�s pretty much what they all do�until they either get caught and cornered and make the choice to end their marriage OR the choice is made for them by their spouse. One way or the other, eventually the cards come tumbling down on them�in time. Learn something about yourself in this experience. There�s lots of valuable lessons here, but the most important lesson would be learn to respect yourself and demand the same respect from others�especially in a couples relationship. If you don�t respect yourself and others, no one is going to give it back to you. M

Subject: Re:The Other Woman - by: Lola

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:01:36 -0400

At the time it felt good on one level and miserable on another. It was very painful to be made to feel like I was second best. I do not know why I did it, it has been one of the biggest mistakes I have ever made concerning my own self. I have spent much time reflecting on my part in this thing. I do feel guilt, anger, sadness, used, lied to and manipulated. I also feel very very stupid and very heartbroken.

Subject: Re:The Other Woman - by: Lola

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:52:53 -0400

Well I am doing some serious soul searching right now I guess I can say. I know what I did was wrong and I knew what I was doing at the time was wrong. At the time when it began I was married to my husband of 10 years. I had just started a new job. There was a man that worked there also that was very handsome and very nice BUT also had a reputation for being a ladies man (RED FLAG) But as we started to get to know eachother by working together and started to have conversations I kind of got the feeling that he had gotten a bad rap because all he ever talked about was his wife and kids (by a previous wife, none together). So anyway, we became pretty good friends we saw eachother everyday and talked and laughed and shared marriage stories. Then one day on a Friday my husband just up and moved to another state. No explanation, no goodbye no nothing, which devestated me completly. As my friend (I thought) this man started to console me (with words) then he would hug me as he left work , then one day he gave me a chicken peck....Then he started telling me how much he cared about me and how he could never imagine why my husband could just leave me like that. And of course I ate this all up, I always asked him about his wife but he seemed to stop talking about her as much as he used to. His wife and he lived out of town 2 hours away and he commuted to work everyday. One night when I was home alone he called me and said he was staying in town and would I like to talk . well we talked alright and ended up in bed together. I don't know why but at the time I felt sooooo guilty about his wife and my husband too (????) I had all these really scared feelings and I still don't know why? It progressed from there, he started staying in town more and more and we spent alot of time together. Then he began to tell me things about his wife that made him unhappy and alot of things about his past that he was having a hard time with and so on. I just kept feeling closer and closer to him. I told him that I didn't feel good about what we were doing and that I was afraid that my feelings toward him were growing and that I think we needed to stop . He told me that he needed me to talk to him that this was the only time he felt happy and could be himself. So I kept on talking to him. One night when we were in bed I told him I wanted to leave because i couldn't handle it anymore and that's when he told me that he loved me and he needed me and he wanted me and to please don't leave him. I guess that did it for me and I kept on seeing him for 7 months, several times I told him I needed to stop but I think it was because I wanted him to ask me to stay. He told me that his feelings for me were beginning to feel stronger than those for his wife and that he needed me to hang on. I kept asking him to hang on for what but I never got an answer.He has left his job and is now staying full time at his home 2 hours away. I was so hurt when he left town and felt like I was a nothing to him ( I KNOW I WAS ) but it still hurts me very much. He still tries to contact me to continue on but it hurts me very much. I miss him, I miss my friend, I miss the man I fell in love with and I also hate him too !

Subject: Re:Do I have enough? - by: POed

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:35:02 -0400

I guess what I'm confused about is why you want to prove she was cheating before she asked for the divorce. In my state it's a no fault state so infidelity doesn't matter as far as divorce is concerned. Why go through all of the trouble now?

Subject: Re:The Other Woman - by: POed

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:27:58 -0400

Good for for ending it but why did you even get involved in the first place? What's it like to have to plan an affair around the wife's/girlfriends schedule, to play second fiddle so to speak? It has to be degrading. What did he tell you that kept you in the affair? Did he make promises to leave his wife/gf? And what about blame I suppose it was all the wife's/gf's fault........You know men who cheat all read the same manual and most importantly, THEY DON'T LEAVE THEIR WIVES. So what have you learned about yourself from this?

Subject: Re:The Other Woman - by: Marie H

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:20:39 -0400

Lola, Not all of us here feel the need to beat you up. I count myself as one of them. It takes courage to reveal yourself as the target many broken spouses and partners would just love to throw stones at. If you've come here to get sympathy, you might not have much luck in that department, as you can pretty much safely assume. But if it's to find answers, some comfort, and tools to help you find a better healthier way to be loved and cared for AND to love and care for your own heart you may find it here. When it comes to this kind of thread, most affairs partners really don't want to look at the ugly side of this, particularly the reality of what they did. But in healing, from both sides of this equation, discovering our mistakes and facing reality is the only way to really make changes. So if your here to learn something and willing to listen, I think you might find this a pretty insightful group of people, who for the most part want us all to be the best person we can be and are willing to share thoughts and advice to help you get through this. Soooooo...you let'r rip...it's your turn. We'll listen. M

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: Marie H

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:09:23 -0400

Betrayed Wife and the others in this thread, I�ve refrained from adding any further comments to this thread other than the one I posted initially. It�s just a little to close for comfort and similarities to my own journey through the tornado. It dredges up lots of emotions and reflections that I still to this very day try very hard to keep in a folder labeled, the past. But today as I read your last post Betrayed Wife, it made me smile�and cry. Not a sad, mournful cry, but a happy, joyful cry. Tears welled up in my eyes while reading your post, but oddly they were really tears of joy. Those types of tears I haven�t had in over two years. It felt good to have those happy tears back again. They�re so cleansing. I guess those tears came from hope. I will never regret having gone the long road with my husband for the past two years. He really did try, as yours has been trying and is trying now. While reading your post I got lost in the days back when I had that hope for my own marriage. I could see our future, again. All the shouting matches at 3 in the morning, the crying and screaming and yelling and calling him names that didn�t fit my character�and him holding me, rocking me to sleep and begging God to take away his life if only I could stop feeling the pain he caused. Yes, my husband did try, as best he could, and I believed and still do believe, he did try�as best as he was able to. I remember feeling stronger than the army of any country in fighting this battle to save our marriage. I vowed to not give up, as long as he was fighting for the same victory. And I truly believe he was. Although the conclusion of my journey did not have the same ending that I think we were both working towards, I will never regret having towed the line with him. Some things can never be repaired, no matter how much two people love each other. I believe my husband loves me by his limited definition of love. It may not be the same kind of love that I define, but for him it is true and it is real and it is as deep as his love can take him. I believe him now when he said to me a million times over and over - I love you more than you will ever know AND I will always love you. I believe that fully. He does love me more than I will ever know�it was the best he could do. But not enough. In ways we are closer than I could ever have imagined and yet further apart then we have ever been. Some of this might not make sense to some of you, someday it will when my story is put together in a cohesive way from start to finish�then it will all make more sense. Today, this place I am on in my journey is very sweet and sorrow�but more sweet in many ways than I can count. Betrayed Wife, I am so happy for you�or is it jealousy or envy�no it�s happiness I feel. Happiness to hear the ending of a love story that I thought at one time I was writing for myself. I wasn�t able to write the last chapter in this the same as you have. I so wanted to write that last chapter the way I envisioned it, determined to have that sailing off into the sunset, happy ever after ending. I can see that last chapter in your post become a reality. That gives me hope. Not for me, that has already been determined. But hope that a couple can heal from this, that love can make a couple stronger and more united and more committed. That mistakes can become gifts that make the bond between two people golden threads that can never be untwined. That hope keeps me going and keeps me looking forward and believing� believing in love. God bless you Betrayed Wife, thank you for making my day. Thank you. Thank you. Marie

Subject: Re:Cheater's Paradox - by: Carley

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 21:05:03 -0400

WOW, I came across this and had to comment on my own experience. I am going through hell since February when I uncovered an email my boyfriend wrote when he responded to a MW4M ad online. The email went undelivered due to the pic size and no additional email was sent. I did confront him, and he told me that he responded but came to his senses after the email was kicked back. Supposedly, he decided to work on our relationship and use this experience to strengthen our bond. Now it's April and I am still dealing with trust issues. Little things have been discovered, but no concrete evidence. I actually contacted several couples on this same online site asking if they have heard from my boyfriend recently. My heart lifted as responses came back that they never heard of him. Well, now one couple claimes that he did contact them and sent the same photo and a few emails back and forth to them. Nothing happened as they did not feel a connection. I confronted him, and he outright said no way o how. The timing was a tad bit off as he was in the hospital so sending emails would be out of the question. Little things have occurred such as adding a password on his computer where there wasn't one before--why? He has lied about little things but again, why? I have had to resort to tracking him on his computer and have so far not seen anything. I simply need hardcore evidence as he is adamant that he is doing nothing wrong and that if I continue to accuse him, he will leave. Any advice people?

Subject: The Other Woman - by: Lola

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:34:01 -0400

I have been the other woman in an affair for 7 months. It's a very long story as to how it started and why I think it started . Truthfully I am hear because I have ended it and I feel alone, in pain and very heartbroken . So go ahead and let her rip....

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: betrayed wife

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:21:41 -0400

I am so glad you are feeling better and more confident in your relationship. Keep up the good work! You will have days that you will want to strangle him or her or both and wonder "why?" I know what was happening in our lives and I can honestly say, my husband could not come to me with his problems or issues, my father had passed away and with all that grief and family stress, I was pushing my husband out of my life He was having problems at work that he couldnt share with me, because I was not supportive of his new job position and when he tried to discuss things, I had the TOLD YOU SO attitude. So, fool husband, I understand and get what you are saying there and I thank you for your input , you said what my husband has been telling me for the last 8 months. 7 Year abyss...Im sorry your husband did not learn. I truly believe mine did, maybe I will regret this decision to let him make it up to me and prove to me that he will make our lives the best ever...or maybe, I will have have best marriage ever. Right now, I believe him when he says he will never put himself or me through anything like this again, he is doing all he can for me, we have a marriage now, that I didnt even know was possible that 2 people could reach such a level of closeness..I have never felt so loved by a man and I have never loved anyone deeper than I love him now. I HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BY GIVING HIM A SECOND CHANCE, AND EVERYTHING TO LOSE IF I DONT. You know your husband Abyss, believe in him as you ssaid, you would want him to give you a second chance if the tables were turned. We will think of this our whole lives, its 8 months for me and I havent gone a day without a thought...not so much about her, she is meaningless...like fool husband said, but him, I just took him so for granted..I never would have believed he could do this to me, i was always so cherished! Even when I was rotten to him, he was always there with whatever I needed......but, things happen for a reason. We both made mistakes, but we have vowed that we will never let our relationship ever get to that point again! You keep trying and working it through, it will get easier.

Subject: Re:How do I get out of this place? - by: Marie H

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 14:48:22 -0400

Title9Dade, I am so sorry to hear about your situation. I can relate. 20 year marriage and 4 affairs dating back to 1996, only recently coming out two years ago, in dribs and drabs, the last trickle of revelation within the past 6 months and still not completely disclosed. I too am at the end of the line with this as far as my marriage is concerned. When it gets to the end ya just scratch your head and wonder�what the heck did I waste all that time for. Can�t turn back the clock so the only motion to go in is forward. That�s where it sounds like you�re at now. Me too Next question�now what? Your girls are at the age where, sorry to say Dad, but you aren�t going to be the center of their social universe for much longer, atleast not in a day to day way. You might even be feeling the pangs of their new social world evolving right now�it�s hard to let them go when they start creating their �own world�. But you never loose them, never. You will always be very involved in their lives�as long as long as you want to and to what degree you want to. That is something you have control over. Getting divorced does not equal divorcing your children or changing your attachment or involvement with them. The specifics and situation might change�but the dynamic does not have to nor should it. When kids are in their teens it�s really hard as a parent to not relate dollars to the connection with them. They need a car, college, clothes, clothes, clothes, (and shoes, lots of them), CD�s, gas money�the list is endless. But even without the wherewithal to provide those things, all they really want is your involvement. When those material things are long gone and they are 27 years old, the only thing they will remember is �YOU��not the things. Trust me on that. My children are all over the age of 26 (3 of them) and I can tell you that there isn�t a thing they want more than your relationship with them at that age�not the material things. I know you�re a ways from those years yet, but the building blocks of those adult/adult relationships are in the making right now. Men are wired to think in terms of being the provider, mostly the financial provider, so it makes sense that you would be concerned about living in a tiny hole in the wall so you can provide as much financially as you can for your daughters when all is said and done. But remember now, they are girls and they aren�t wired the same way as you are. Try to put some of the emphasis on what you can give them in ways other than financially and not think in terms of being the financial martyr making sacrifices that will make your life unhappy. What message would it send to them, as 13, 14, 15, and so on to see their dad living a lifestyle that doesn�t make him happy. They WANT you to be happy and see that you are happy. That will show them how to respect themselves and how to care for themselves, by your examples. Now that doesn�t mean you have to live in a Penthouse�but living a menial lifestyle, barely making ends meet so you can provide monetarily the things they can surely live without will only teach them to not value the core of a relationship. You�ll find a way if you know what it is that you want. We all do. I raised 3 of my children when they were very young. We didn�t have the best vacations or live in the lap of luxury, but I made sure the important things were covered. I bought my own house, they went to private schools, were well fed and clothed and we did without the fancy things�all without alimony. I say this because where there is a will, there is always a way. You might have to rearrange your priorities a little�but you can still maintain a very close relationship with your children and still have comfort for yourself. It can be done, and I don�t mean to sound arrogant, but I�d be the worse person for anyone to argue with about that statement being a true statement. I have only told you part of the story�the rest of my story that I have left out is what I use as the basis of why I say this so adamantly. Believe it�you can do it. No doubt in my mind. IF that�s truly what you want. So in the end you aren't really protecting yourself...you are planning for yourself, and that's the best place to start your journey to a new life. M

Subject: How do I get out of this place? - by: Title9Dad

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 13:41:29 -0400

Hello. I am looking for some very specific advice. First, please allow me to VERY briefly share my story. . . I have been married for 24 years. I have two daughters, age 12 and 13. Both my wife and I are in our late 40�s. In �99, I discovered that my wife was having a six year affair with a family friend. Wife atoned and broke it off (so I thought). I stayed to work it out on behalf of my daughters (age 4 and 3 at the time). In �07, my wife has some serious medical issues. . .decides she wants to finally turn her life around. . .comes clean. She kinda, sorta started up with the OM. Her counselor made her tell me and she breaks it off with the OM permanently. However, what was once a 6 year affair. . .now turns out to be a 12 year affair. Wife atones again, immerses herself in our church and says that she understands if I need to end the marriage (she offered to leave the house). She really has put the effort in. So here it is, two years after the �second� revelation. I am not happy. I believe I have made the decision to end the marriage (I have not told her). I have no clue on how to take the next step. . .the separation. . .the divorce. . .the kids. Everyday, I hear horror stories about dads winding up in tiny apartments and not seeing their kids (I am VERY involved in my daughters� lives). I don�t want that to happen to me. . .I did not cause this problem. Financially, there is good news and bad news. The good news is that both I and my wife work. I make a low six figure salary. The bad news is that her illness, and our lack of cooperation, has resulted in considerable debt. We still have a positive net worth, but cast is very, very, very tight. For now, I plan to keep this preparation to myself. However, when I end it, I want to protect myself and my relationship with my daughters. Any, any advice would be appreciated.

Subject: Re:healing - by: Marie H

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:17:24 -0400

Acceptance, the e-mail address you sent did not work, it bounced back at both myself and CC. Could you please re-post your e-mail again, something wasn't right with the link to the e-mail you posted. If is it doesn't work the next time around, or you'd rather do this differently, under my profile my e-mail address is listed, you can send it directly to me. If you changed your mind that's fine too, just let us know. Happy Easter! Happy Spring! Happy New Beginnings! M

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: Seven years of Abyss

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:01:23 -0400

The same thing has happened to me...Loving marriage, wonderful children, full trust and a very caring home environment. 22 years together, many adventures and many happy times together. Inteligent and gorgeous wife. Even more gorgeous husband. Crisis, middle age crises..whatever it is...It has happened. I also fought the battle very hard to keep sanity at the home front. Forgave, gave a helping hand, assisted and done everything that was possible and impossible to do. Slowly the trust was coming back. I heard many, many times I was the woman that many man desired to have as a wife. That he was a full who deserved to be punished, and was so sorry to have done that to me and bla..bla..bla..and bla..bla..bla.. After he felt that my trust was nearly 100% back.... BANG.....another woman was in the parade, and another , and another. .... Are you talking about pain because of one betrayal?..Try to do everything you are doing, giving 100% of yourself and your children, and be prepared if a second betrayal will come up. This is just a preparation of your strenght because you will need even more at the second time around.....and that hurts....and hurts and hurts... and hurt even more when your children will feel the same pain you are feeling now. Is it worth to leave in fear? Is it worth to try so hard when you know it may happen again? and then you will be so fragile that you may not have the strenght you are having today. LIFE IS TO BE LIVED IN FULL .....with your own dignity and pride and self love and even greater love for your children, and be respected by your children. because they will respect and they will admire you for that...and they will not feel sorry for a poor, unhappy mother. They will celebrate the victory with you...They will be much stronger beings, than leaving with a father who they are not sure if they can trust. We do not need to suffer so much. You will only realise that after years are gone by and you will become the happy person that you know you are. Do not allow others to destroy this. You gave love now get it back to yourself.

Subject: Re:Signs of Infidelity - by: Wayne67

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:09:18 -0400

I my case the ex-wife gave herself away fairly early. She was running tours of the middle-east in 2007 and rang me with guilt in her voice claiming men were hitting on her. When back in Australia she promptly bought up books about other womens affiars. Sex was great after years of doing it only once a month. She also talked about 'if I had an affair ...?' She also suggested we go and live in Turkey, where he is. Also, in referring to the people she met she always referred to them by their first name only. In the case of the other man she would refer to him as 'my friend Mohammad' ; there was no reason to use the term 'my friend'

Subject: hubby's out alone and i'm worried - by: hubby's out alone and i'm worred ,

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 14:59:18 -0400

my hubby's out tonight with his mates from work and i'm worried. not that anything has happened for me to worry about, im just still not able to trust him after his affair 2 years ago. we have just been away for 2 weeks holiday without the kids (first time ever) and it was great but he thinks everythings fine now and all's forgiven and forgotten but i just can't let it go. i believe him when he say's these women meant nothing , he's never had any contact with them since. and i have put him through as much hell as i've been through and hes still here, he's changed for the better i can see that but i just can't seem to let myself forget and be happy once more. i hope he doesn't let me down again, i couldn't go through this again. but i also know i can't stand beside him his whole life. i need to get a grip.

Subject: Do I have enough? - by: MREfan

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:59:16 -0400

OK, I�ll start at the beginning. On 11/30/08, my wife stated that she no longer wants to be married to me. We have been married for 7yrs as of 4/6/09 and although we have had our issues (I have lied to her regarding smoking and small money issues. The article on this site called 'Get Others to be Honest' shed a lot of light on why I did that! It described me and my wife's relationship to a 'T'.), I have NEVER cheated on her or physically abused her. Well, after she broke the news to me, I thought it odd that she did not want to work things out under any circumstances. That led me to suspect that she was possibly cheating on me. I decided to install a key logger on our home computer to try to find the proof that I needed. Almost all of what I had found was fairly circumstantial stuff; but, it did lead me to believe she was having an emotional affair with another woman. Yah, I know� you can call me Ross. (Friends fans will get the reference.) At one point, I did accuse her of having an emotional affair. And guess what she did� she denied it. Of course! Now, one of the reasons that we have not split yet is because she can�t afford to support herself and four children alone. Even with support from me. I made close to 4x what she made last year. And I made $50K in �08. That should tell you how little she makes working part time. Anyway, while patiently biding my time I was able to uncover some pretty damaging stuff. During the week ending with Feb. 6th, I was able to determine that she had sent a teddy bear and candy arrangement to the �other woman� with a card that read��Anxiously awaiting spending my life with you!� Also, on Feb. 13th, through the key logger, I had found that she had typed up a 74-line document to the other person for Valentine�s Day. Each line started with either �I love you for�� or �I love you because�� A few of the lines where pretty basic; however, some of them were deep. I.E., �I love you for having multiples!� or �I love you for saying my name in the moment!� or �I love you for loving me out loud!!!� So, my question is this� Do I have enough proof to confront her about the affair and her not have good reason to deny ? And at this point I do know that it has been physical and I also know that it started before she asked me for a divorce. Thoughts anyone? Signed� �Ross�

Subject: Re:Signs of Infidelity - by: Williette

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:57:39 -0400

I think as long as you are with a cheating spouse you will always be suspicous of them. My boyfriend/ex is still lying to me and making all kinds of excuses not to come home. He called last night and said his car was not acting right. Then said he would bring me a burger home and that was twelve hours ago and have not heard from him yet! So I change my locks again, but thia time is for good. I am not taking him back! It is over!!!!!!!!!The pain of all of this not worth it anymore!!!!

Subject: Re:Professional Liars - by: Marie H

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:30:31 -0400

I don't know what the heck she is doing now, but I can tell you she isn't a counselor anymore. She lost her license to practice because of the charges brought about the animal cruelty...that's what started the chain of discoveries. Last I knew when the crap all hit the fan at once, she was admitted to a behavioral health center and that's the last I knew about her. I'm going back a number of years so I don't really remember what all the specifics were. She is an older woman and was older than myself at the time obviously, so my guess is she slipped through the system because she was a therapist for many, many years, probably before they did extensive mental health screenings and criminal background checks. I don't even know if there were any criminal convictions other than the animal cruelty charges at the end of all this, so that wouldn't have been of much help. She was, at the time this all happened, working her way up the administrative chain because she was getting older and was looking for salary increases. I do know they are a lot more stringent on the guidelines and criteria now then they were back in 'the day'. Scary, huh? Imagine how many of them are still around and go quietly unnoticed. Makes ya wonder. M

Subject: Re:He is a CL; how do I help myself deal with him? - by: Marie H

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:19:31 -0400

If you don't mind me asking, in what way does your religious belief affect your staying married to him?

Subject: Re:Professional Liars - by: POed

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:13:30 -0400

I forgot to ask you Marie what happened to the therapist you were talking about, after all of that came out? Is she still working in the field? Isn't there some way for people like her to be better screened before giving her her license in the first place?

Subject: Re:Professional Liars - by: POed

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:03:53 -0400

Thanks for your reply Marie. I kinda figured she would be her own downfall eventually, creating victims along with her just as you said. I actually never tried to catagorize her as anything but a liar and manipulator, but she does act out without empathy or conscience so maybe she is pschopath. I don't know what her diagnosis is but I do know I have no plans on doing anything but avoid her permanently and try to learn to not be a target of manipulation in the future. It's really ironic and scary to see the parallel between the kind of "friends" and men I attract. Way too much in common.

Subject: Re:I feel so lost - by: hoping

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:59:37 -0400

9 years ago I had an affair, I mean a full blown affair, physically emotional the whole thing. I threw him out on our 5th wedding anniversary because of this affair. Then a year and a half ago I had a very emotional affair, mainly by phone but I did see him but we did nothing. I feel horrible about it and can't seem to get past it. Does that make any sense. Is my guilt what is causing all my problems?

Subject: Re:caught my boyfriend online cheating - by: Very hurt

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 08:33:05 -0400

Hi everyone it seems that there are a lot men cheating this day and time with dating sites or porn. Im going through the same thing with my boyfriend. We have been together for 6 years. I met him on a dating site. I caught him talking to a girl on myspace in Dec, he left and 3 weeks later came back making all kinds of promises but now I have caught him again now on a dating site. Now again he has said he was sorry but he wasn't sorry at all after 3 days went by he was right back at the site adding more pictures of himself.He tells me he is depressed and he has lost everything since has moved here with me. What right does that give him to join a dating site? I'm so hurt but he thinks he has done No Wrong!!!! I even ask him what would you think If I did this to you. His answer was it wouldn't brother him.Why do men feel like they haven't done anything wrong? I just feel like he is a player and he needs to leave and I have told him to leave. I never want to see another dating site as long as I live that is for sure.

Subject: He is a CL; how do I help myself deal with him? - by: jah

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 08:06:45 -0400

We've been married almost 10 years. My husband lies whenever we have the slightest argument. No matter how absolutely absurd the lie, he'll use it so he can win and/or make me out to be crazy. I've had enough but I don't think divorce is really an option for me due to religious beliefs. I think its time for me to see a counselor or therapist for myself just so I can deal with my spouse(he will never go to one). I don't know where to start. Do I look for one in the yellow pages? Do I seek a therapist, counselor or psychiatrist? Where do I start?

Subject: Re:What do i believe?? - by: Marie H

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 06:38:45 -0400

Good for you Jaylee, that sounds like a pretty good plan at this point. Hey, maybe I'm the one who's screwed up, who knows...but I do know that everyone makes mistakes. All of us. We have all done things because of bad judgement, excuses, irrational and unconscious thinking and because of our own history, sometimes we do things that hurt other people, even though it's not our intial intention to hurt someone. And because of our own personal history, we also sometimes react to these hurtful things in a bad way. But hey, we can choose to change those behaviors if we want. I'd say this situation looks like something he's willing to change and fix the hurt it caused. It also looks like he's open to acknowledging his own weak link within himself. Looks like he has atleast cracked the door open to looking at that. On a real positive note, if it were me, I'd take this opportunity to give him a sense of safety and security in knowing you are willing to understand him better and help him understand himself better. You could also take this opportunity to let him see deeping inside yourself. It's all about that give and take dance, share and receive. This could very well open up the possibility to get even closer to each other and connect on a deeper level, ya think? Knowing what I know now about this share/receive process, I wouldn't pass up what looks like a problem on the surface but could turnout to be a golden opportunity to grow closer. M

Subject: Re:Professional Liars - by: Marie H

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 06:23:47 -0400

Wow Poed, sounds like a socialized psychopath to me. No doubt you�ve looked this up already. Being friends with someone like this is just way too close for safety, least of all comfort. Step away from the psychopath, as far away as you can get. Hands off ! Good thing you called that one! It�s funny you brought this up�well, not haha funny, but I�ve seen some pretty screwed up therapists. I knew one counselor who had D.I.D (dual identity disorder). She was an awesome counselor, so it seemed, until it came out in the open years later that she was arrested for animal cruelty, had a side job as a hooker on weekends, and had 7 distinctively different personalities. Not only was she a certified therapist, she also held a degree as an APRN, and at one time worked as a clinician in a cancer center. All this while her day job, her main profession, was as a counselor and advocate for adult victims of child abuse. She was working her way up the administrative chain�that�s when the animal cruelty charge cracked open the rest of her story. Blew us all away. A lot of mind boggling stuff came out in the open after that which didn�t match the person we all knew. One of them was that she had attempted suicide 4 times. Wow. The only thing that ever stood out in our minds as odd, knowing her fairly intimately, was she never talked about her family, had no real friends to speak of, no long term attachments to anyone and she was a walking/talking self professed expert at everything, which mostly she was right, weird as that sounds. She was really good at what she did (as a therapist) and no one could argue with that. So, yeah, these people are definitely out there in everyday life, holding high positions of authority and sometimes holding the life of someone else in their hands. Pretty scary. As an aside, as it turned out this woman I�m talking about was severely sexually abused by a handful of family members as a child. So, yeah, she was a victim for sure that slipped through the system. She learned how to cope with her victimization in the best way she knew how. Sad, very, very sad�but the people who were touched by her acting out were scarred by her scars. It�s a real good example of how blame works. No one was there to take blame for what happened to her in her childhood. Blame HAS to land somewhere. If the perpetrator isn�t available to take blame, the victim has two choices�take on the blame or project the blame onto someone/something else. But is has to land somewhere�it doesn�t just float around in space unclaimed forever. This woman projected the blame onto other people by acting out when there wasn�t enough satisfaction in self-blame. Anyway, these people use their social authority to manipulate and yeah, they sure do live out their victimization by victimizing others and in turn re-victimize themselves again and again, without a doubt. So on the one hand you feel sorry for them for their deeply rooted scars and the torment they live with, but on the other hand victims, rightfully so, are angered by their behavior. Everybody looses. There�s no happy ending at all until they are stopped or better put they get caught in their own trap someday leaving a trail of heartache, pain and even destruction in the wake. I have yet to figure out how these kinds of people can be unmasked for who they are before something REALLY dreadful happens to an unknowing victim. When you come right down to it really the only one who knows their true identity is one of their victims, which by then is too late. That�s wayyy out of my league. For me, the only way I have been able to come to terms with this dilemma is to realize there are many things which I have no control over, this being one of them. That might come across like a cop out, but I think it�s also a reality. The only thing that gives me any comfort about this is knowing that someday, somehow, they will eventually bring their own house of cards tumbling down on themselves by way of their own actions. Eventually it will happen by the simple nature of their behavior, unfortunately at the expense of others. But you know what? We are only human and cannot fix things that are beyond our control. Sometimes the best way to affect something or attempt to control something is to NOT control it at all. Ya just have to let it go, as sad and as frustrating as that is, it�s the only healthy thing to do. I didn�t answer your question because I don�t have an answer. I don�t know if there really is a satisfactory answer, but if nothing else I hope I was able to give you something to put your mind at ease and not feel some sense of responsibility or obligation to do something about this person�s behavior. Sometimes it�s just not something in our power to fix. I really don�t know what else to say about that dilemma other than to not let what you observe and know this person does to other people by her behavior reflect back on yourself. Very sad. M

Subject: Re:How Far is too Far? - by: Jaylee

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:28:43 -0400

I think the line between what is appropriate and what is not is a very clear one.... Basically, you should not behave in any way that you would not if your partner were standing beside you. That it, if you would hug this person in front of your partner, then hugging them in the same way at any other time is appropriate. But if you would not hug the person if your partner were around, then you should definitely not hug them if you're alone. Just my opinion.

Subject: Professional Liars - by: POed

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 19:14:09 -0400

I have some questions about what I call a professional liar predominately because of the image she portrays. I thought this woman was a friend of mine until I realized I was just a target of her manipulation and I ended the so called "friendship." Because she works in the mental health field I am concerned her personal agenda could be really damaging to her clients and or their families. She portrays herself as a victim and doesn't take personal responsibility for her choices. She sleeps with men she meets online. It's dangerous because she allows them to come to her house without knowing anything about them, not even their full name and she feels hurt or victimized when they don't want a relationship with her. She developes crushes on her clients, who are all male, and makes plans to hook up with them after they are no longer in the program. She also has affairs with married men and had an affair when she was married, she's divorced now and has no children. She does all of this while appearing to do all of the right things like attending several different 12 step programs and going to church and having a close friend who is a good christian and who knows nothing about this other side of her. She's also vindictive if she feels she has been slighted and will go out of her way to orchestate a plan of revenge. I'm not in touch with her and have no plans to change that. What I was wondering is what is the most I can hope for as far as her being exposed? There is nothing I personally can do. From conversations we had I got the impression her personal therapist believes she is a victim and does nothing but validate her victimhood, so she never has to be accountable for her choices.

Subject: Re:What do i believe?? - by: Jaylee

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:55:48 -0400

Thanks Marie, I had already started to come around to your way of thinking, but because of my history I wasn't sure if I was just making the same mistakes again (ex-husband cheated before the wedding and I went ahead and married him anyway and we had a miserable 15 year marriage before we gave up trying to get past it). The big difference now is that my b/f swears he did not do anything with her other than go to her party and sleep on her couch (he lives 2hrs drive from her place), plus he has never tried to make excuses and blame anyone else for his actions. He has said he was stupid and niaive for believing they could be friends, and that he wanted to be friends because she helped him through a difficult time (ie his divorce)and he felt he owed her something. He says that he will do anything to make me believe in him again. He has given me a list of all of his passwords to email accounts (work and home) copies of his phone and credit card bills, and printouts of all emails to / from her even though I never asked for any of this. He says he wants me to be able to see everything he does so I know where he is and what he's doing all the time. He says he'll never give me reason to doubt his word ever again. I guess at this stage I can't really ask for anything more.

Subject: Re:Found out 6 months later from someone else. - by: Crushed

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:27:10 -0400

You're right and I didn't believe it. He said he "touched her boobs" and then he didn't finish, and then they talked a little bit and she left. Ugh. I'm so hung up on the details. I think it's b/c I never got the story directly from even, from the getgo. I really don't know whether to move on, or try to work it out. I feel like he can't be honest w/ me about anything he feels is embarrassing, or that he's ashamed of. I thought that's what a serious relationship was all about-- taking the good w/ the bad, accepting people for who they are. I was ready to do that, but he wasn't ready to give me the truth. I wish this girl would tell me her side, she refuses and even denies that anything happened. It's so confusing.

Subject: Re:Struggling To Keep My Sanity! Help! - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 17:01:04 -0400

Well, there�s one thing she�s probably not lying about and which is that she didn�t think that far ahead� not only about the texting and you find out about it, but it sounds like foreward thinking blanked out way before that. Keep in mind what I am going to say isn�t to defend or justify anything that your wife did or said, it�s just an attempt to put make some sense of this and get a grip on the parts of this scenario that might help you think this through more clearly. Hard to make sense of insanity, but sometimes it helps to give it a shot anyway. Gotta start someplace. The crappy stuff first. More than likely what she is doing by saying in response to your comments about her behavior (by turning the focus back on you) is manipulating the guilt. It works sortta like this. She screwed up, big time, not only by what she did, but also by trying to cover it up. Even though people who have cheated are pretty messed up in the head when in this mode, they aren�t stupid, actually they�re pretty sharp when it comes to defending their actions when they are caught. Some of them deny, some of them break down and spill their guts and some of them deflect. If denying and covering up isn�t bad enough�deflection is even worse. It�s so manipulating, especially when the betrayed person has already been manipulated to begin with and confused and, and, and. It�s kinda like gas lighting�without the gas. Often times you feel like you may very well be chasing your own tail around in circles, emotionally speaking. By her saying to you that she doesn�t feel you deserve her, and indirectly saying she is somehow �broken� and needs fixing, puts HER in the victim mode. And of course when you love someone you don�t want THEM to feel bad�all of a sudden the tables get turned�while you chase your own tail around the table. And they know it. It�ll make you crazy. You�re hurt by what she did yet she can manipulate you into wanting to fix her, make her feel better (by telling her don�t worry I won�t leave) and make her feel better. Deflection at it�s finest�yes, she is one of the really smart cheaters. I�m so sorry to say that, but real is real. Meantime those feelings of confusion and anger and hurt are all reeling around in your stomach. Yuck! As soon as you bring up what hurt you have by what she did�here come those �poor me� puppy dog tears and your are basically screwed. How the heck can you put a child in the �time out� chair when they are so weak and broken? The impression I get is that the �I need to fix myself� business is all a bunch of bunk. It�s her way of not being punished for what she did. I�m using childish comparisons because her behavior is quite frankly childish and immature, but it looks like it�s working pretty good for her now doesn�t it? Because your response to all this is you have to fix yourself�it�s kinda like a parent whos child does something wrong in school and then the parent blames themselves for the child�s bad behavior�picture it. Rather than put their poor, broken, hurt little child in time out and punish them and make amends for their behavior, essentially being held accountable, the parent turns the whole thing back on themselves. Now, now, honey, don�t you cry, I�ll fix this, it�s okay�you wouldn�t have hurt me by what you did if I was a better parent. I will always love you no matter what you do wrong. And lickity split that same child will run outside and do the same damn thing all over again without thinking about it twice. As your wife has done. No sweat off her back and to boot you feel bad - for her. Basically by telling her I love you and I want to fix this and all those fuzzy things�she is being rewarded for bad behavior. See the connection? Ok, now open your eyes, back to reality�she�s an adult not a child. A spouse doesn�t expect childish behavior from their partner, but they sure can manipulate you into accepting it�just as she is doing with this. Wake up call. I would call her out on the her saying she needs to fix herself. Yea, she sure does, obviously, but she can, if she�s mature enough to recognize it, do both at the same time�repair your marriage, help you recover and mend your hurt feelings AND be accountable�being accountable would actually be a really great place for her to begin by killing two birds with one stone�fix herself AND the relationship. But this whole process doesn�t stand a chance of working until you be the adult, and point out to her that the tactic she is using to get sympathy and reprieve from what she did just isn�t going to fly. If she want�s to act like a child then sadly you may have to engage in tough love, adult parenting skills, until she choose to grow up and behave like a responsible adult. For what it�s worth. M

Subject: Re:Struggling To Keep My Sanity! Help! - by: POed

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:51:23 -0400

Ask her specifically what her plans are as far as fixing herself. Ask her if those plans include temporarily separating or does she plan to stay in your home while she works on herself. Let her know what YOUR expectations are s YOU CAN FORGIVE HER AND YOU CAN MOVE BEYOND THIS. Know for yourself what you will do if she does not meet your expectations. I think to really forgive and get past a wrong, the person that is in the wrong has to live up to their promises and do the work required. You will feel better when you make a decision to set a limit of what you are willing to accept and what you are going to do if she continues to lie and not meet your expectations.

Subject: Re:Tips to catch and deal with a cheater!!! - by: beck

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:08:27 -0400

yes yes yes that is cheating! Movies, books whatever....If you are gettin off by looking at someone else it is cheating!!!! Ever read the bible?

Subject: Re:Struggling To Keep My Sanity! Help! - by: tlf6031

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:04:19 -0400

Dazed and Confused, I hate to hear that you are going thru this! My story is very similar to yours as my husband found a long lost friend on Facebook and they started IM'ing, talking on the phone and texting each other back in late December. I found out around the first of March. There were right at 1300 text in ONE month. Of course there were more than that all together. The ONLY difference is your wife has admitted what she did. My husband and the OW both say they were just friends....Yea whatever! They have had NO contact in over a month that I know of. I will tell you this - after I found out that this had been going on behind my back for almost 2 months I felt like I would die. My heart would race and I would almost have an anxiety attack every single day. I could not work (I came to work) but could not focus on anything except "Oh is he IM'ing her right now?"..... Needless to say I literally made myself sick. Posting on this site was one of the best things I could have done � Marie H among others are awesome and are there to listen and also to give great advice. My H and I also started marriage counseling and that has been a blessing for both of us. We have been together for 8 years and I have never been more happier. YES I still think about what happened every now and then but I don�t get anxious over it ya know? Let me know if I can do anything � I am here to listen too!! Tami

Subject: Re:UPDATE - by: tlf6031

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:46:04 -0400

I hope to have positive updates too! It is sad that something bad has to happen before some people can see what they may lose...Oh well! I am So excited for you - I will be bcak on May 7th to check out your post that is for sure - I can't wait to watch you on TV either....That will be the night I tell my H that I talked to you on a forum to get advice - He won't mind at all.... Happy Easter to you too and take care!! Again, THANK YOU!!! Tami

Subject: Re:UPDATE - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:26:23 -0400

Yes, it's May 8th. On May 7th I plan on putting up a post to explain something about the interview, from behind the scenes of the actual program they air. As you can imagine, with atleast 8 or more hours of taping that was done, most of it will end up on the cutting room floor. I have some big concerns about what will be cut and what will be spliced together. I don't want to tell the whole story quite yet because there is still MORE freakin' taping to do next week. Geez, how much taping do they need, I mean it's only a 1 hour program. Not even, if you subtract the commercials. But hey, I'm not a producer so what do I know. Hope to see you around here before that with positive updates, but if not, come on back on the 7th...I'll give you a real behind the scene take on what REALLY happened. Hey ---- Happy Easter !!!!! M

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:20:06 -0400

You are so very welcome, and yes, happiness every-single-day..somewhere there is happiness. Thank you! M

Subject: Re:I feel so lost - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:10:02 -0400

I'm so sorry Hoping, I don't quite understand what you mean by this - I have cheated on him in the past 9 years ago physically cheated and a year and a half ago an emotional affair. I always thinks he wants out of our relationship and have for 9 years as if I can't forgive myself. I threw him out on our 5th wedding anniversary. I know I am horrible. Could you add a little more to this part of your post, I don't want to misinterpret what you said. M

Subject: Struggling To Keep My Sanity! Help! - by: Dazed and Confused

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:33:16 -0400

I am losing my mind and any and all advice are welcome...I will give a condensed version... I found out my wife was having a cyber affair with a guy she knew from high school 20 years ago whom she reconnected with on Facebook. I always trusted my wife and our, I thought "solid" relationship(Married 14 years). Anyways while looking back in the history on the computer to find an old site i had visited I came across the chat logs and some adult video's they shared from other sites(wasn't of either one of them) just sharing porn off the internet I guess. Anyways i confronted her about it and she stated it was not real and it was harmless!?!? I then asked harmless to who?? Then she realized it was wrong! She then voluntarily deleted her facebook page and i told her to promise me if this guy ever contacted her she would be honest with me and tell me. Well a month goes by and all was awesome or at least i thought.....I am looking at our cell phone bill and it DOUBLED! She was text messaging him now! I did not say anything for about a week but Did ask her twice if their was anything she needed to tell me and both times she said no and almost seem pissed that i had asked. Well finally i couldnt keep it in i confronted her about the texting and she said she screwed up....that's her words not mine...won't repeat what i was thinking. I asked her why she lied to me and didn't tell me she was texting him and she stated she was afraid that she would lose me...I then asked her what did she think I would do If i found out by myself?...she said she didn't think that far ahead. Needless to say I have been talking and talking for the past week to her about how she has hurt me and I forgive her for what she did and I want it put behind us so we can move forward since I love her so much! Now she is telling me she needs time to fix herself because she still worries i will leave here even tho i repeat3edly say that I will not and I want to work through this. She also stated she feels terrible and guilty and that I do not deserve her, I can do better. Well anyways I have talked to her all that I can, and she says She loves me but I just don't feel it from her and then she keeps telling me she has to fix herself first before we can move on. That makes me think she may want to move on by herself, altho she says she doesn't want that, but when i keep telling her the trust from me will come back in time and I love her and i need her affection to get through this i get I have to fix myself......WHAT DO I DO!? I never lied to her nor broke her trust! I feel like I am all ALONE and I did not create this hurdle! HELP!!

Subject: Re:healing - by: Coolchickmama

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 11:33:28 -0400

And I have re-read the posts too. Wish I'd done it sooner I have to say. Been down down down with recent relationship and strangely when I read what I put about 1st N/CL I could have been speaking for this one too. But you know how it goes - they are the truthtellers. Yawn yawn ..... Throughout the fog, smoke, mirrors of this second relationship I held on to my truth. Every flag was noted until I was sure, safe and at peace with myself. I took the good things and enjoyed, I took the bad things and learned. I leave this relationship an even stronger person than I was. Saddened of course but no longer needy and happy to fill the void with things for me. As always I send much love across the ocean to my two very special friends. XXXXX CC

Subject: I want to move forward - by: hoping

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:36:40 -0400

I have no idea how to begin. I need help. Please ANYONE!!! I don't know what to do but this not trusting is eating me up insie.

Subject: Re:healing - by: acceptance

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:56:59 -0400

Dear Marie and CCMama and those in the middle of the mess, YES! I have gone back and reread this thread from the first post I made that started it all..it's amazing for sure. What's even more amazing to me is how many people have read it and how our pain and loving on each other has told the truth for so many others. No, I don't recognize myself and I love it. We are like the town where I live...a Phoenix who has risen from the ashes. I once heard a story about how fine china is made...it has to be fired multiple times at hotter temps and yet in the end it is considered "fine", "special", reserved for special occassions, handed down from generation to generation. We are like that ladies...we've been through the fire for sure, now we are shining and yes, don't get me wrong...I still hurt and get down at times but it's not anything like what it was before and that is our story. Thanks always for your love, support and bravo for your choices too Marie to become a healer as well. What we shared here will forever be our legacy that we left behind and I'd be so proud to know you both face to face. CC Mama, I couldn't have made it without you...you were the strong one I met in the beginning and kept me going. I continue to grow, to learn to change and mature. Beyond looking at the stars...you ladies are stars that shine for sure. My love, respect and gratitude, always, Acceptance

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: goingcrazy5150

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:42:08 -0400

Marie i cant thank you enough for listening to me and helping me through this. You are and inspiration. I will keep you posted.. I know i will have my days and i can come here to vent but i just cant thank you enough for truly opening my eyes. I agree with you 100% i have goose bumps just reading what you just said! i believe it. i honestly do.. may happiness live with you everyday!

Subject: Re:UPDATE - by: tlf6031

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:34:34 -0400

Marie, thank you so much again - You have such a wonderful way with words - You know how to put a smile on someonones face that is for sure! Set backs - Yep, he and I even discussed that just last night - We both know now though what to look for and change whatever it is before it gets to the point it was at a few months ago ya know? Marie, as crazy as this sounds, myabe, just maybe finding out about him talking to the OW for almost 2 months behind my back helped me in a round about way - What I mean is it really opened my eyes to the fact that my H could be gone tomorrow and he also knows if it ever happens again, then I will be gone. I truly believe everything happens for a reason!! BTW Marie I have an alert set in my phone to watch you on Dateline on May 8th right? Again thank you!!!

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:31:03 -0400

GC, Wow, today is a GREAT day! Take this thought with you, it just might be the very thing that will get you what you want eed - If he is committed to this (which is sounds like he is)...he will give you that closure you are looking for when you don't need it anymore. Think about that. There's a huge message in there. Bless YOU !!!!!! M

Subject: I feel so lost - by: hoping

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:26:14 -0400

I am brand new here and just happened to come across this site. I hope someone can help because I feel so lost. I have been married 14 years and have 5 children. My husband works for a race team and travels alot. I also work full time so life it pretty stressful. I have cheated on him in the past 9 years ago physically cheated and a year and a half ago an emotional affair. I always thinks he wants out of our relationship and have for 9 years as if I can't forgive myself. I threw him out on our 5th wedding anniversary. I know I am horrible. While I was pregnant with number 5 I found out he was texting a girl he worked with and texting ALOT. I confronted him, he denied, then admitting and I threw him out. Of course we got back together. That was over 2 years ago. I have been so needy and over bearing to him since he came back as I just can't trust him. I just found out yesterday he met a girl while at a race and she has been texting him. Not very much maybe 10 times and he says it's nothing but I feel like here we go again. I want my marriage to work, I want to trust him, I know he wants to be with me but can't stand my back and forth go stay go stay. I am so confused and just don't know how to get ahold of myself. I am consummed with anger and hurt and just want to get passed this and live our lives happy. I know he wants this too. He has apoligized about the girl in FL which HE NEVER SAYS he's sorry so I believe that he is. It just hurt that he thought it was ok to give it out. I know I am rambling I just want our marriage to work and it's so hard when I just can't get past the past. HELP!!!

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: goingcrazy5150

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:23:46 -0400

Marie- your right it was a trigger and it was the phone thing that i belive triggered it again. and thats how i think i got back on this negative thinking track that he's up to no good again. But i may just be reading into it because im paranoid. i think i am totally too hard on myself, thats one of the things that i've always struggled with i want to please everyone but i never sit back and please myself. I never put myself first EVER. i understand now about forgetting you are are so right it will fade with time. i guess with the closure i want to see it as an ending for me and also i believed i needed it- but again do i really need it- i guess not i just thought that closure was just the ending i needed. youve brought up a lot of great points and i appreciate eveything thing you ahve opened my eyes so much more and i really need to do some soul searching to find out what "I" really need. I know its not going to be easy but i know in my heart and i feel we can get through this you have been so helpful and i hope and pray that he's opened his eyes and sees that this is also something he wants to keep working on and maybe one day when he's ready to tell me he will. i have the faith that this can be something that will truly make our relationship stronger. i'm going to sit back for a while and see what happens. no one is perfect right? and im not saying that i'm over it im just saying that i will be alert to some extent and see where this really goes. i need to keep an open mind now that i let some of the demons loose. i feel so much better these last few days just talking about it and seeing that there is hope and he may just come clean one day.. the more i force it the harder it seems and im not getting the answers i need. so this is my plan and i think it may just work. thanks again marie. you are awesome - now i know there is hope out there..

Subject: Re:UPDATE - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:21:54 -0400

Wow tlf, that is very COOL! Just hang in there, expect set backs from time to time, they happen, it's okay, as long as you keep your nose in the forward motion. I get so very happy inside when I hear these things. No matter how crappy my own day might be, it makes me so joyful in my heart to know a healing is in progress. I love it! You go woman and keep..on...going.....forward. Marie

Subject: Re:Do C.L.'s steal from you? - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:18:11 -0400

That would be a definite YES answer...but you already knew that. This just validates it for you. I understand that. Sociopaths are also pathological or compulsive liars and they steal things. Eyes open warping. Hey girl, you've been down this road a long time...is this the thing that will set you free from this person...maybe huh? You'll reach your limit and then this will all be done and over with, won't that be a good thing? Let'er rip warping...let'er rip. M

Subject: Re:Found out 6 months later from someone else. - by: noir

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:11:51 -0400

yep...he's adjusts his story every time you get more info...it's classic. and i'll bet his tale of hands-off oral sex is bunk, too. i wish i had a nickel for every time i heard a guy say that was "all that happened." it simply doesn't work that way. has anyone out there ever performed oral sex on someone without ANY other kind of contact? it doesn't happen, unless she was a prostitute or she was doing it as some sort of public service. it's illogical.

Subject: Do C.L.'s steal from you? - by: warping

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:09:09 -0400

My [size=4][/size] C.L. friend still spends a lot of time at my house. I still haven't got any solid evidence to confront him with. However, all members of my family who've met him, either do not trust him or feel that his "talk" is questionable. This is my latest problem. I've been noticing that a lot of my good jewelry is missing, including a necklace that he bought for me! Also, I'm missing some good binoculars, a new camera and several expensive watches. I know I'm a bit disorganized and lose track of things, but NEVER so many high ticket items have been missing at the same time! No sign of any break-ins and my kids wouldn't steal from me so guess who that leaves??? I have mentioned these missing items several times and he just says, "You'll find them, they're somewhere in your house". I'm beginning to get very suspicious Does anyone here know if C.L.'s also may be thiefs???

Subject: Re:UPDATE - by: tlf6031

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:07:38 -0400

He has been doing great - This last month has been like a brand new start for us after 8 years. He is NOT the mushy type (I am) but he has been putting forth the effort to do things to make me feel loved and special. He told me last night that he has not been this happy in years. Even though my H and the OW both say that they were ONLY friends, I still have my doubts. I will NEVER know the truth but I have to move on for my own sanity. The fact that they have had NO communication for over a month initself is helping me cope alot. Hopefully counseling will help with this as well. Like I said before, I still think about it from time to time but I am not obesssing over it anylonger. Whatever happened, happened and there is no turning back. Thanks to you all!!!

Subject: Re:What do i believe?? - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:26:55 -0400

A couple observations that may help you sort this out, or they could make you even more confused, but here goes. They�re really just food for random thoughts. You can�t go back to being �just friends� the same way we know friendly relationships to be after you have had a romantic/sexual connection with a person. You can be �friends�, but it won�t be - just friends. The dynamics change quite a bit when you have had a intimate relationship with another person. It becomes part of the history of that relationship. They were more than just friends, and they will always be more than just friends because of that history. Rebound relationships are the trickiest to get into and they hardly ever work out for either person. In rebound relationships one or the other is using one or the other or both to heal a wound, it�s a band aide and they often develop quickly and get out of control just as quickly�flip side of that is they usually end abruptly and can leave both people very confused - like - What the �heck was that all about� by the time one person realizes it was just rebound. He even identified that this relationship was a tool he used to get over his divorce�putting this college friend story aside, he identified that this relationship was a tool (bad tool btw) to get through his divorce. And putting the college friend story back into the picture it makes even more sense that it was a rebound relationship, as he recants this relationship being an in between thing whether she was an old friend or not�she was a rebound. If this theory is right, that being that this relationship was in fact just a band aide, and he came to recognize it as that at little too late, it makes sense that he would probably feel like a total a** for even getting mixed up with person in the first place. We (all of us) can do some pretty damn stupid things when we are in a state of confusion and pain and low self esteem. He screwed up�again. So he meets you. You are both coming off the heels of a divorce. You may have dealt with your divorce differently than him. Men do NOT like to be perceived as being weak. They just are NOT wired to admit it. Doesn�t mean they can�t learn�but they just don�t come with the same manual we do. If he were to admit to you at the get go that he was so emotionally needy, so weak that he got involved with another woman for very wrong reasons, that would be admitting to you that he was weak and it might also identify that he was more hurt about his divorce than he would like you to believe. It�s so much easier and explainable and acceptable to say - oh, she was a friend from the past (we already had a relationship) so we reconnected�she helped me�I helped her and next thing you know we are sleeping together. It�s just so much more explainable and acceptable (to you and to his ego) than to admit - hey, I was weak�I needed somebody�I used somebody. This woman�she sounds like she�s a heck of a lot more needy than he was/is. And probably things he said to her combined with her perception and projection of what she wanted out of the relationship (or needed from the relationship) lead her down lalaland in a quick hurry. Now he�s screwed. He doesn�t want this relationship�he wants you. She wants him (he contributed to that and she swallowed it up) and now he has to face the music of the tangled web he wove�which all started because he was weak. Remember, men don�t do this dance very well. So now he has this big freakin� mess on his hands. This needy pain in the butt woman (that he made the mistake of getting involved with in the first place) wont� go away. She�s just screaming in the background of his life and in order to get her to quietly disappear into the woodwork (and btw, not have to face the mistake he made or should I say the weakness he had in the first place)�he tried to go BACK to just being friends. The thing he doesn�t understand is that backward slide is a lot harder for a woman to do than a guy. They can detached a lot easier than we can�and he knows it. Now she�s pissed as all get out. He just wants her to go away, and stop making a mess of his life, so he lies in an attempt to recover. Yeah, he lied, that means he WAS a liar because he lied. But that doesn�t mean he IS a liar. We have all lied. I can tell you for a fact this is absolutely true (I was recently part of a medical/scientific process whereby it can be proven without a doubt a person can lie and NOT be a confirmed liar). It sounds like you could change this by doing one thing here. Try to understand why he lied. You can only do that by giving him the chance, the opportunity to explain it to you. Men think and react more to what's on the surface than woman do. We all have conscious and unconscious thinking, we are just better at getting in touch with it. Right now (the lying and covering up) is his conscious mind thinking (what's on the surface). The unconscious part (the reasons why he lied and what process was going through his head at that time) is his unconscious mind�asleep at the wheel. Don�t get me wrong, understanding why he lied is NOT condoning it, it is NOT making excuses, it is not accepting it or dismissing it. It was a LIE�he Lied, that�s a fact. But if you guys can come to a place where he can open up to you, feel safe enough with you that you will not judge him for being weak and for trying to scoot around all this, I�ll tell ya, this sound to me like you guys will be even closer. You will learn more about each other and that brings people closer and closer is safer. It is not going to be an easy thing to do. You will have to give him a safe place to spill the beans about his emotions and you will have to be open and willing to hear about his emotions without judging him. It�s like touching a part of him that he would rather cover up. That�s my take on this. Because a person has lied, does not condemn them to being a confirmed hardcore liar. M

Subject: Re:Found out 6 months later from someone else. - by: Crushed

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:08:01 -0400

They worked together. That is how I found out. We live in PA and the trip was to Boston. He never thought I would find out, but when my best friend was on another trip with some people that were there the weekend he cheated, the girl that set him up with the one he cheated on me with was talking about how he never called her friend after they hooked up in Boston. My best friend knew it was when we were together and she told me. What comlicates this more is that we live together. He's staying at his parents' right now but that can't last forever. I don't know whether to move out or what.

Subject: Re:healing - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:17:47 -0400

Acceptance, as you read in CC's post she would like to have your e-mail address. If you could, if you post a reply this this thread and include your e-mail address within it, I will forward it to CC. Your post with the e-mail address with NOT appear on the board..I'll delete it when it once it comes through for approval. Marie

Subject: Re:What do i believe?? - by: Jaylee

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 06:58:35 -0400

Thanks for your thoughts... I must admit that they echo my initial reaction exactly. But I have spoken to my b/f's mother, who confirms that the ex-girlfriend has been phoning her for months even though she has been asked not to. And I have seen the text messages and emails she has sent demanding to know why he would rather be with me than with her, begging him to go back to her one minute, and agreeing to be 'just friends' the next. And I know she is a liar because she has also claimed to have been with him when I know that he couldn't possibly have been with her (on a few of these occasions he was actually with me). But the fact remains that he did lie to me about seeing her. So, am I just making excuses? Does this change anything? His mum has spoken to me and told me that he is more upset about losing me than he was even about his divorce. His oldest daughter keeps phoning and telling me how upset daddy is and wanting to know why he's so upset? I have told him I am not ready to make a decision about us. He says he knows he has broken my trust and that he'll do whatever it takes to earn it back, for as long as it takes. In every other way our relationship has been wonderful and happy. I miss him. Am I being a total fool for even considering the possibility that he may just be a dumb man who did something thoughtless and stupid, or is he a lying and manipulative bastard?

Subject: Re:healing - by: Coolchickmama

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 06:52:04 -0400

Holy Moses I cannot believe how uncanny this is all turning out today. Good day my dearest lovely strong ladies. Old CC Mama has been through the mill, ground to fine dust but now reformed into something better than ever. Bit of residue from most recent relationship err I mean leaning experience, but on the whole feeling pretty good about ME. I cannot believe my next life choices about healing for women are yours too Acceptance. I should though since we have held on tight to our beliefs and shed all that rubbish others have put into our heads. I am so pleased to hear from you, I want to give you a huge hug, You Me and Marie, didn't we have a rollercoaster ride from hell. The blackhole of terror. We rode it, we hung on, we held each other to feel safe. And for all it was a nightmare I would never undo it. I could not, for it has learned me so much about me and others like me. I was once told that when the student is ready the teacher appears. And this is true. And just at the final hurdle you were there Marie. You poked that final blob of need out of me, thank you so much. I am now alone and happy to be so, the hard ride I had with my most recent 'abuser' is over. I have taken what he taught me about me and turned it into something positive. I have let him go to face his own demons or not. I refused to be moulded into his fantasy partner to feed his insecurites. He choses to continue hiding his own demons and has found a new woman to project on. He does not know I know. I understand why he NEEDS to do it. It doesn't hurt so much anymore. I know it's not about me. I know it's not love it's need. I thank him for all he brought into my life that was good. I love him for that and always will. I take my happy memories and know the rest was there to teach me. Proper true love and I hope so much he finds happiness. I am comfortable in my own skin now. I have no partner pushing their emotional garbage into my head for me to experience their turmoil. I am unmeshed. I am at peace in my soul ladies. And so ready for a new adventure. For every 'button' or trigger of mine that I have cried over I have dealt with. I have wailed the night and many a day away. I have looked deep inside of me to find who I am, and shed the part who others want me to be. I have released all those who have hurt me and forgiven them for the load they carry in their own souls. I'm happy with me. You two wonderful supportive intelligent women have been a huge, no mammoth part of my healing. And the brightest star in the sky, where ever I am, will always bring you to mind for the rest of my days. So if you are truly up for it .. I will fly to the states, I will stay in a hotel and I will hug you both in person. I will send my email address in my next post. I know you have it already Marie can you arrange for Acceptance to have it too??? I love you both from the bottom of my heart. Always. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX CC

Subject: Re:healing - by: Marie H

Fri, 10 Apr 2009 04:55:41 -0400

Acceptance, Hi there woman! Have you ever gone back and read your posts from back 'then'? I have. Who the HECK were we then? Not the same people we are now, hey? You sound wonderful and I'm so, so happy for you - Soooo happy for you! I could give you the hugest hug if I could. Oddly, it wouldn't only be a hug for you, but a hug for us, for me and for CC. It's comforting and reassuring to know the universe really does put the people in your life you need when you need them...as long as you trust it. When we needed to trust 'something' or should I say when we had no trust in us at all and thought we'd never trust a single thing again, ever, there it was in front of us...something to trust, and so we did. In looking back now, I can see how we did something here that we didn't think we could ever do again, and we did it without even realizing we were doing it...we trusted. Wow! That is so profound. And look where it took us. Past the nightmere. Isn't it just something you wish you could bottle up and give to someone else so they too would know that joy? That freedom? Ahh, if it were only that simple. Not speaking for you or CC, but for me, as bad as it was back then, I wouldn't trade that emotional chaos for anything in the world. To do so would mean I wouldn't feel the freedom and peace and wholeness I have today. Funny how if we trust something bigger than relationships we receive something back in return that far outweighs the struggle to get here. Geez, I'm getting too philisophical for a Good Friday, sorry. I wanted to let you know how happy I am for you. I know this is going to be so exciting for you and so full of love in your life. From good always comes bad as long as we allow it to happen and are open to seeing it and it sounds like you got the 'gift' in all this....wow! I sense your energy and I hope you can receive mine in return...it is only filled with happiness and joy for your heart. Love to you Acceptance! XXX M

Subject: Re:I already know but I need to KNOW - by: DIANEoMITE

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 21:20:55 -0400

Well, to me it seems like you already know everything you need to know about it. I know that it hurts a lot, and part of you might not want to believe that it is true, but it really sounds like it is. If he sees that this is bothering you and he still isn't doing anything to ease your mind, or coming clean, it sounds like you need to just remove yourself from the situation. By staying there with him all you will be doing is causing yourself more worrying, more stress, and more pain. It's always hard when a relationship has to end, but why stay there and let yourself get hurt some more? If I were you I would leave. Maybe that's the shock that he needs to be honest with you. It doesn't sound like he cares about your feelings at all, and you deserve better than that. Take care of yourself, put you and your children first, because he isn't.

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: Marie H

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:32:46 -0400

These thoughts that regurgitate years afterwards can be brought on by a trigger. Triggers could be something so simple as a scent, a name, a song, sometimes they can be so subtle we don�t even recognize them, but we sure recognize the change in mood or that sinking feeling in our stomach. The thing about these triggers is you can feel so out of control of your fluctuating emotions, especially if you cant� identify what the trigger was. If you can�t, don�t make yourself crazy trying to identify it, just assure yourself that it will pass. Sometimes even just knowing about triggers can help settle the emotions back down. Ya know, it sounds like you might be being just a little bit too hard on yourself. Would it help you to know that you do NOT have to forgive him? You don�t you know. Forgiveness is something we give because we want to, not because we have to. It�s a gift we give ourselves, not only to the person being forgiven. But you do NOT have to give that gift, but should you decide that you are ready to forgive, it will be because you are ready to, as it should be. And forget? You will never forget, how could you realistically forget? Could you ever forget where you grew up? Can you forget the birth of your children? The day you got married? Of course not. There�s very strong emotions attached to those memories. But guess what, even those memories are diluted over time. The excitement you felt when you first held your baby isn�t nearly as clear today as it was at the time. As hard as you try you can�t relive the same emotions as you had on that day. So it is with this affair and the emotions attached to it. You will always remember with words how you felt, you�ll be able to describe them accurately and recollect them, but you won�t internalize the same feelings about these memories as you did at the time. They won�t give you the same feelings as they once did. But you will never forget them. Knowing this might help you too, because it�s okay that you can�t forget, that�s something you simply can�t do. So maybe if you take the pressure off yourself and stop trying so hard to forget it might make it a little easier. And to forgive�you will if and when you are ready to forgive�you�ll know when you are ready to forgive�it will just be�you will let it go because the pain it caused will no longer be there�that�s the gift you give yourself from the forgiveness. Now on to the closure part. That is also a gift you give yourself, but it only has value if you really need the closure. Do you feel that you really need that closure in order to move forward and let this go? Only you know that answer and if the answer is an absolute yes, then you have to make some very hard decisions. Don�t deny yourself something you really need in order to heal from this. If you need closure to move forward, than that�s what you need. No way around that. If you search deep into your heart and can honestly say to yourself that you do NOT need that closure, then you can come to terms with this in a different way. But if you truly do, then a complete healing for yourself and your relationship to thrive it will be very difficult to do without it. Remember, some people do NOT need closure, there is no hard rule about that�it�s about what YOU need. There�s something I noticed you say often when you talk about this. You say what can �I� do to fix this? Hold on there, isn�t this a relationship of two? Why leave the other half of this relationship out of the healing process? That�s not fair, don�t ya think? When did you become the appointed sole fixer of problems in your relationship? If you can, how about thinking in terms of �us�. And if your husband isn�t a part of the �us� equation, do you have much of a relationship to begin with? Probably not since it does take two people to have a couples relationship, right? The best way to explain how you can get past all this is for you to stop taking ownership of fixing this yourself. It simply can�t be done. It will take two. If your husband really does want this marriage, if he really does want healing for you and forgiveness for what he�s done, then there is no other way for him to be a part of that other than for him to�BE a part of it. Remember though, he gets to choose if he wants to be a part of that�you can never force a person to be accountable. And just because they won�t be accountable, doesn�t mean you have to settle or try to compensate for it. This is a really hard thing to fully understand and wrap your head around and it�s upsetting, I admit. But if your husband either refuses to give you or is incapable of giving you what you are asking for in order for you to feel you have come to a place of peace and closure with all this and move on to the future in this relationship you have few choices, but you do have some options you can consider. You can stand up to him for what you need, you can clearly make a statement of fact to him that this is what you need if he wants this marriage to work. His options are to either do the work on his end, be it go to a therapist or talk amongst yourselves, but he has to put his two feet in this�with you�or he can choose to do nothing and not have the relationship he says he wants. Those are his choices. He needs to know what his choices are and you are the one to define what they are for him if he wants to preserve your marriage & let�s not forget - HONOR YOUR feelings. To this point it sounds like he is defining the choices you have, which is�none. He wants you to get closure his way. Sorry, once again�it does NOT work that way. How can you trust his actions which appear to be of good intention now when he still has not answered for the actions that were clearly not of good intention then? I promise you, if you could get him to a counseling session or two if nothing else he will open his eyes to see that he really hasn�t been a part of this process with you. The one thing I want to leave you with is�you have to honor your feelings, not diminish them by trying to compensate for his lack of being your partner in this. M

Subject: Re:healing for Acceptance - by: acceptance

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:52:15 -0400

Dear CC Mama, Gosh, just read your post from 2 months ago...good grief girl..sorry to not be here in such a time as that. I'm in my own place now and wish I could take you in my dear one. Last night was a full moon and you are never far from my thoughts when I see it. I hear you on the attracting creeps, liars and etc and I'm going to share a tid bit with you..not that I've found anyone good just yet but for what it's worth. As the broken, bruised reeds we are/were we are/were incomplete in and of ourselves. I desperately sought out relationships to fill that hole in me...to make me feel complete. We have an instinctive desire in us to repeat the pain of our past because we so desperately want it to turn out different "this time"..that magical thinking...if we try hard enough, or do this or that...maybe this time it will be different. That is our greatest enemy for sure. We cannot do anything to change the past nor keep trying to make peace with our past by continually repeating it in the present. When we find that wholeness within ourselves, I believe we will stop this cycle. When we discover that all by our lonesome we are enough and that old wound is healed by us and our creator..then we are complete. Ready to find another complete soul that does not need to abuse, threaten, belittle, lie, etc to make themselves whole. Rejoice in the fact that you can spot them...how long did we believe it was us? I start Grad School this fall...ready for this one...my heart is for empowering women. To shine a light for healing..my long term goal is a healing clinic for mind and body...our bodies carry so many memories, pain and sickness as a result of the war we have been through. I live in Arizona (if you are near, let me know) and somehow this has to work out. Somehow there will be rainbows with pots of gold at the end of this thread...until then...know you are loved and thought of dearly. Acceptance

Subject: Re:UPDATE - by: alm2234

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:49:52 -0400

I dont know if you ever will, I guess if you put your mind to it....but I know, I never will.

Subject: Re:UPDATE - by: POed

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:16:37 -0400

The more he does to constantly reassure you, the less you will think about it. This is not something you can or should forget but maybe something you can move past. Good luck.

Subject: Re:Found out 6 months later from someone else. - by: POed

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:10:02 -0400

I'm curious, how did your best friend find out? This sounds like a case of cheater's paradox, they will only admit to as much as the evidence implies and somehow make it seem acceptable. IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE. You have to decide how much more you want to believe and accept. Definately postpone the wedding for a year and give yourself time to decide if this is what you want to deal with in your future.

Subject: Found out 6 months later from someone else. - by: Crushed

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:33:40 -0400

To anyone who has been in the following position, I ask for your advice. My (now fiance) boyfriend at the time cheated on me 1 month into our relationship. We were definitely committed, definitely had the talk about being boyfriend/girlfriend. He went on a business trip and cheated. However, he didn't tell me. I found out from my best friend, 6 months after it took place. I was humiliated and furious that it took someone else telling me. He and I talked and he said he just kissed her and she didn't come into his hotel room and it meant nothing. He said she gave him her number and he deleted it on the way home b/c he felt bad and knew he wasn't going to call her. I chose to take him back and we have since gotten engaged. However, I never felt like he was telling me the whole truth about that night. I asked him over and over to tell me what happened. He stood firm in his story that it was just a kiss and ended at that. I never gave up thinking about it. I even confronted the girl via email and she said she didn't want to be involved in my relationship. Over time I let it go b/c I loved him and thought he would tell me the truth b/c I had asked him so many times about what happened, that I thought he'd get sick of hearing about it and crack if anything else really did happen. (One month after I found out he cheated, I also found out he was addicted to pornography, and was lying and keeping that from me as well. He is currently getting therapy for the porn addiction. I told him then that if he ever lied to me again, we were done.) I found out this past Monday (a year and a half after the cheating incident, and 1 year after finding out about it) that she did go into his room that night on the trip. When I confronted him with this new evidence, he at first denied that anything more happened, then eventually told me that she did come into his room and performed oral sex on him. He maintained he didn't touch her and they didn't have sex. I am so confused as to what to do. I love him, but I feel beyond betrayed and lied to at this point. I am asking myself what ELSE he's lying about. I just can't understand how he lived with that lie for a year and a half, asked me to marry him, etc.. and let me keep thinking that all he did was kiss this girl. I'm so confused as to what to do. Our wedding is in 6 months and I am at the breaking point and I need to decide whether to move on with, or without him. Any words of wisdom out there?

Subject: UPDATE - by: tlf6031

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:33:35 -0400

Ok just an update on my situation � My husband and I have been going to marriage counseling for awhile now and we both feel as though we have fallen back in love with each other. I am also going to individual counseling to sort out past issues. Our counselor is the absolute best!!! My H has stopped ALL communication between him and the OW. As far as I know they have not spoke in well over a month. He even took her off of his Yahoo messenger.�..They BOTH still say that it was NOTHING but friends��.Whatever! My problem now is that I can�t get the �thought� of him and her possibly having an emotional affair out of my mind � Don�t get me wrong, I do NOT think about it like I was � I was OBSESSING over it before�.Now it is just here and there but it still bothers me�.. Will this thought process ever stop?

Subject: Re:Venting - by: LoveYourself

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:44:39 -0400

Hey no problem. Just remember that you can always come here to vent and let your feelings out. Some times we dont always have someone to go to and thats whats so wonderful about this site.

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: goingcrazy5150

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:42:29 -0400

You are totally correct I want CLOSURE this is consuming my life. and i am letting it, I wake up to it i live it everyday and got to bed thinking it.. I know i have a problem and need help thats why i posted about this. and i dont understand why all of a sudden i have these feelings again. Again it probably because he's been so different , but in a good way. and i am just thinking the worst. And i cant put my finger on it. what if its nothing?? why am i torturing myself. he is around all the time so i cant see the possibiliy of it being someone else. i think im just paranoid, i have 2 kids to worry about now whereas it was just me. i just need the help to get over it I dont know how to go about getting it because he wont own up to it, i know that a problem but what can i do to try and fix this without the owning up he should do? i want this to work i do.. but jusdt need that push in the right direction. i need to learn to forgive and sort of forget. i know u said that its just a memory a bad one at that but is it the forgivenss that needs to be addressed first? i need for forgive myself dont i? i let it get so consuming.

Subject: Re:Can't we just get over it already? - by: noir

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:39:33 -0400

first of all, he has given you so many different versions of this story, i'm not sure what you're supposed to believe. he's minimizing, and he's also being wishy washy with you. that's not good. and i don't understand why he's upset about finding out she's a slut (duh!)and perhaps the whole fling didn't mean to her what he thought it did. the fact that it's bothering him would PISS me off. but worst of all is his insistence on continuing to contact her, especially this meeting to discuss this ending bullshit. why is this even necessary? if it's over, then it's over. no meeting required. they don't have to divide property, or determine custody. it's utter nonsense and it's an excuse to get together. THEY SHOULDN'T BE COMMUNICATING. flat out. if he wants to be with you, then he should simply work on being with you. he shouldn't be holding onto a relationship (on any level) with an insecure,amateur lap dancer with whom he cheated. i know you said they work together. if he is unable to ignore her because of work, then one of them needs to find a new job. that's the price to be paid when you shit where you eat, and it's why so many companies have policies regarding relationships between coworkers - it can become very disruptive, especially when it ends. they weren't paying the 2 of them to find "love" - they pay them to work. the bottom line is THEY CANNOT BE FRIENDS under any circumstances if he is to stay with you. she is not a friend to his relationship with you - there is no room for that. if he wants to hold onto her in ANY form, he isn't thinking of your needs, and that isn't right. is that what kind of person you want to be with?

Subject: Re:I just dont know anymore!! - by: Barbara

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:26:40 -0400

Marie...Well things went ok last night. He was shocked and of course asked me the two things I knew he would 1.is it his and 2. did I do this on purpose. I was prepared to hear those things so it didn't bother me. But all in all he said we will get through this. He couldn't stay long so we will probably get together over the weekend. I know his head must be spinning as is mine. I am just happy it's over and that it went as smoothly as it did. I am totally looking at this as a gift and keeping a very open mind about everything. I think now I finally have some peace and it feels good :)

Subject: Re:I feel like killing him. - by: POed

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:44:54 -0400

Did you text her from his phone or yours? You do realize if you used your phone your number showed up along with the text.

Subject: Re:Can't we just get over it already? - by: POed

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:27:31 -0400

All I'm hearing is about what he wants and does, what do you want? Did you want and expect him to stop communicating with this woman once you moved back? That would have been a reasonable expectation in fact that should have been the least he could have done. The fact that he is still communicating with her and appears to be jealous of her being with another guy sounds like he isn't done or over her. He's not showing you respect. Tell him what your expectations are of him and set your boundaries and check up on him. Have a plan ready if he doesn't meet your expectations.

Subject: Re:YOUNG LOVE AND LIES - by: Chloe

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 06:00:44 -0400

Hi AJ, Sometimes you have to move on to really experience a relationship . This young lady should not be using anyone to buy her anything the mere fact that she calculatedly manipulates another man's feelings to do this is utterly wrong. If she had the sass and sparkle to tell it to him straight well she'd be more respected but right now she is deceieving a man to get a material benefit and then telling you about it as if it's something to be proud of ! It is deeply irrational . She sounds a little bit like a person who wants things she can't have and as you don't buy her stuff she tries to buy you stuff instead it's all so ridiculous . Why don't you try being friends of course you have feelings for this troubled young woman but you don't seem to be getting any real value from this relationship and I don't mean in dollars more like sense not cents ! The point is unless you free yourself to meet other people how are you ever going to know if she's the one . Love is blind but love's lost beauty lies in the eyes of a woamn with money on her mind and material gifts ! Get out live a little !

Subject: Re:I just dont know anymore!! - by: Marie H

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 04:16:46 -0400

I wasn�t able to wish you luck for last night, but I hope today brings you more clarity from your conversation with him. You�re so right, if things were picture perfect it would be boring. If it were perfect we would have no way to gage happiness or love or peace. Without heartache and pain we would have no way to feel compassion or sympathy. If everything always went the way we want it to go and want it to be, how would we would know what it feels like to overcome struggles and value our triumphs. If we always felt good about ourselves�how would we ever know when we really do feel good about ourselves. There will be a gift in this�you�ll see. If you look at this as a gift waiting to be discovered Barbara, you will find it. If you look at this as anything else, it will keep you down and become a burden. M

Subject: Re:husband flirting and wants his bestfriends wife - by: Upset

Thu, 09 Apr 2009 03:00:44 -0400

My husband and I are still separated. I have been going to counseling every week. My biggest problem: wanting to believe him when I know in my heart, he does not tell all the truth. This will take time. I am trying to find ways to deal with my sadness and grief. I know things will get better with God's help.

Subject: Re:anyone from Australia? - by: photogirl

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:48:46 -0400

not from Australia - but according to my CL husband, we honeymooned there! (not really - we went to upstate NY - neither of us have ever been out of the country) Sure wish THAT one was true!!!

Subject: Re:He's making me feel like I'M crazy - by: photogirl

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:26:36 -0400

yup, my husband too, makes me feel crazy. I also get the "believe what you want" attitude - and then there's nowhere to go. You can't argue with someone like that and EVER be right - even when you are 150% right. It's very cruel. Sometimes I just want to scream.

Subject: Re:snooping - by: photogirl

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:03:22 -0400

Who knew there are so many of us? Over my 15 year marriage, I have found dating sites, sex sites, google searches for sex (once he was going on a business trip to VT, and I found a search for VT Married Sex) When I confronted him on it, he said he was just bored and typed in that search - that he had no intention of doing anything. How stupid does he think I am? Also, once I know he met some internet ho out at a bar - I caught it on his computer, and called that girl up and told her he was married. I am staying purely for the kids (believe it or not, this has not seeped into that relationship, and being married to someone like this, you get very good at pretending). The lies keep happening, someone told me the other day that my husband had told him how we went to Australia on our honeymoon (we did NOT - we went to upstate NY). I didn't even know what to say... so I said nothing. Later I kicked myself for not just saying, "no we didn't - he's a compulsive (or pathalogical) liar!" Of course, when confronted he clams up and won't talk about it, or worse, turns it around on me for snooping. Not sure what he expects. I feel trapped, trying to keep my kids life normal (if I leave, we have to leave our town, their friends, probably our dogs, EVERYTHING).. so I am doing my best. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd be gone gone gone. So, please know you are not alone. Unfortunately, I understand completely your situation, and denail is a very comfortable place to be. Hang in there.

Subject: Trust him or is he lying again? - by: DIANEoMITE

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:44:33 -0400

Okay so this is going to be kinda long I will try to condense it as much as possible, but I really need some advice/guidance. I found out about 3 and a half weeks ago that my boyfriend of 2 years was cheating on me for 2 months. I work days and he works nights, and one Friday night he took off to spend time with me. He fell asleep early and I had been having some suspicions about him and his coworker texting so much so I looked in his phone and she was sending him messages like "Baby I love you so much" "I wish you could hold me right now" etc. So I woke him up and confronted him. He told me that they had been to the mall together to hang out and he had been over to her house a few times and that they had kissed 3 times. He swore that was it, but he said it was an emotional thing. They had said "I love you" to each other. I told him that he couldn't have both of us so I needed him to choose right then and there. He said HE COULDN'T CHOOSE!! So I left for a few hours and when I came back we sat down and talked he asked me to stay with him, vowed he was sorry and that he loved me not her. He said he couldn't give up being friends with her though, because they work together. So he called her while I was sitting there and told her that I knew what was going on, and that he had made a mistake. He told her part of him thought that he was over me, but he realized he was wrong. So he told her that he wanted to be with me and he didn't want to be with her anymore. But he still wanted to be friends with her. Well I wasn't really buying that either. So while he was sleeping I got her number from his phone and text her. She called me and we talked and I found out he hadn't been honest with me about what had happened. Apparantly they never went to the mall together he would go over to her house right after I went to work in the mornings and he did it a few times a week for 2 months. And they had sex twice and fooled around more than that. So I confronted him about it and he said they had sex once and he felt really bad so he stopped it. So he lied to me AGAIN. So that girl came over to our house and got everything out into the open and he admitted to all of the lies. Well I packed up all of my things and left the state to stay at my parent's house. I stayed there for 2 weeks and he text and called me every day before work, on his lunch break, and after work. He told me he hadn't been seeing the other girl, and that he really wanted me to come back home. He promised that it would never happen again. So part of me wants to trust him and I want to fix our relationship. So I came back. I have been home for about a week and a half. I am not working right now, so I am home all of the time, and he is with me all the time until he goes to work. So I know he hasn't been seeing her, but she texts him every night after work, and she is writing blogs about him on myspace saying she still loves him and if it's meant to be he will come back to her. He told me that he is trying to be her friend, but it feels awkward, so they are trying to talk everything out to make the awkwardness go away at work. I feel uncomfortable about them talking. I don't think that it will help their feelings go away if they continue to be friends. She went to a "lap dance party" this weekend and told him that she "did some things she shouldn't have" pretty much implying that she had sex with another guy. My boyfriend got upset about it saying that people at work had been saying that she was the type of person that always needs someone no matter who it is. And he said he is upset that he didn't mean as much to her as she said he did. I don't know what that matters to him anymore if it is over between them. I looked in his phone while he was sleeping this morning and there were two messages from her. they said "You tell me when and where I guess." and then "Okay Saturday." and I asked him what it was about and he said they needed to talk about what had happened and they would do it next time they worked together which will be saturday. Am I just being naive here? Should I just leave him for good before he hurts me even more? Or do I trust him? Do I confront him about my feelings and ask him to stop talking to her? Do I confront her about it? I am unsure of what to do now.. and I feel really uncomfortable.

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: A Fool

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:43:08 -0400

Lastly, when I say that I have to be true to myself, what I am saying is: I want to be able to live with myself, no matter if my marriage works out or not. And, knowing myself, the only way I can do this is to know, without a shadow of doubt, that I tried everything I could possibly do to give my marriage a chance to be saved. For my sake and his and our children. I want to be able to know that I faced all the demons, both within me and our marriage, and did everything I could. I want him to heal and want to help him in every way I can and every way he will allow (it's his choice to accept my help after all) and therefore, either way - whatever happens, we both will know that we tried. And, the worst that can happen, I hope, is that we remain friends. After all, we are parents. So, for myself and our children as well, I would like to be able to say that I did all that I could. We've been together for almost 20 years. This has been the first betrayal - I am sure of this!- and I owe it to myself, to him, and to our children to be open and try to save our marriage. I don't want to have those regrets of "What if...?" I know that I couldn't live with those....

Subject: Can't we just get over it already? - by: DIANEoMITE

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:30:07 -0400

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: A Fool

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:04:12 -0400

I took a day off from posting to just read other posts here and learn what I could from them. I still feel very hurt. I am still amazed by the ability that we humans have to inflict such devastating pain, whether deliberately or not, to other humans - especially the ones you claim to love and cherish. I am still "lost" and hoping to find inner peace once and for all. Jalela: Thank you for your post. I'm sorry for your pain and the situation you suffered. I agree that we, the betrayed, do have to do a lot of the work (giving, forgiving, believing and trusting) should we choose to stay in the relationship. I, too, want a mutually loving and respectful relationship and have chosen my husband to be my partner in this type of relationship, as I have done from day one of our relationship. I know that all of us make mistakes. I am willing to try; I am willing to help heal the both of us. I just hope that it won't be in vain... Betrayed Wife: Thank you for your post. Yes, there are glimmers of hope. That is sometimes the only reason that I am able to get outta bed. I love him. That hasn't changed, even after this betrayal of his. I have to be honor that; I have to stay true to myself. If the love was no longer there, it would be different. But, it is. Therefore, I have to try. If roles were reversed, I would hope that he would give me the same chance. Yes, I think I agree with you - I don't think I will ever be able to forget the betrayal. That will always be there, between us. I just hope that one day, it won't be this huge chasm; this gigantic abyss after some time. I hope that this will bring us closer; to a better phase of our relationship - you know, lessons learned kind of thing that turn out for the good of the relationship. (See? The romantic fool within me is still alive - for better or for worse remains to be seen....) So, thank you for your support and encouragement. I really, really appreciate it and you. A Fool Husband: Thank you for your post. I was hoping for a male perspective. I am sorry for your pain but glad that you are making amends. I am happy that you realized what caused you to cheat and that at the end of it, you re-connected with the person you truly are inside and re-committed to staying true to your own identity. I am especially happy that you ended up staying with your wife and marriage. Apparently, your true self loves her deeply, despite the betrayal. Look, I understand that all of us make mistakes. I don't know how or why I am able to be so forgiving about this; being the betrayed one. I guess, it's because I know that the man that betrayed me is not the true self of my husband. (I am not saying he's multi-personality or anything like that!) I just know that he wouldn't have done this to me/our family if he was his normal self. Therefore, I know that something was going on within him; an identity crisis of some sorts. And, I understand. Although it does hurt that he did not allow me to share with his identity crisis (for lack of a better phrase) or whatever it was that he was going through, I guess that was his choice. He has/had the right make that decision for himself. The fact that he didn't "let me in" and compounded it with betrayal...well, I guess, that's the consequence of a bad decision. We have all had to deal with consequences of bad decisions. Some days, like I said, are better than others. It will always hurt that he shut me out during a time of personal crisis. I am determined to do all that I can do, with his help and permission, to make sure that we both never go through a personal crisis alone again... for as long as we are a couple. So, yes... I plan to help him heal, as I am trying to also help myself heal. I don't know specific steps, etc... but I hope that my still being here in the first place and giving him my understanding and support shows him that I am here for him, as I have always been. Maybe I did something to make him feel as if my love would change if he showed weakness of any kind. I don't know. But, if I did, I am determined that he never gets that impression again. I love this man. I have to stay true to myself. I want this man. I want our family to stay together. Until that changes, I have no other choice but to help us both heal. Thank you for your support and encouragement.

Subject: Re:fear of a sociopath's retaliation... ?! - by: angelarosen

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:40:00 -0400

Hi, I read your whole story, and like you I have been in a very similar situation...I have been lied to, stole from, he has intimindated me with remarks about what he would do to anyone that wronged him. Like he is making a list of all the people he beleives have done him wrong in one way or another...I call them vague threats...It is a way that he thinks he can contol me. I got out of the relationship but he still kind of stalks me and says he just wants to be friends, but I know If I let him in, he will be really nice for awhile and then once he thinks he has me hooked again, he will reel me in. And then all over again with the drama and lies and like you I am emotionally exhausted. I have come to realize he is a compulsive liar and a phycopath. I changed my phone number and I really think that is the best thing you can do. I am in counceling now and I will give you the advice that my councesor gave me. Absolutely no contact...no email change your email if you have to...If she sends you a letter don't read it throw it away. If you send it back to her you letting her play her game. Let her talk about you anyone that knows you and knows her knows she is a liar. She wants you to get mad and call her and tell her off because that way she has some contact with you and she can try to get back in your life again. And if you are worried about your family anything and I mean anything that happens no matter how miner file a police report and mention that she is stalking you. I wish you and your family good luck. Best of luck And stick to your guns because either she is going to kill you or your going to kill yourself! Be strong and know that you don't need someone like that in your life. Listen to me preach I am having a very hard time too keeping him away but there is much more to the situation than I have said. Good Luck

Subject: Re:Venting - by: POed

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:04:27 -0400

I don't really have any plans to confront him with what I recently found, the note. There's no point. It will just get thrown back in my face as being my problem. I'm the insecure one. I'm the one that was "in the wrong" for snooping. Right now we're not in contact and I plan on just keeping it that way. One day I'll get my stuff back, but not today or any time soon and I'll have someone with me to support me, like this site has. Thanks for encouraging me to vent. It helps.

Subject: Re:Venting - by: LoveYourself

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:54:19 -0400

You really did close your eyes to everything? You were not being sarcastic. You know what he has been doing, you can see it all. So Jen, whats your plan? What are you going to do from here? Have you decided when you will comfront him?

Subject: Re:Venting - by: POed

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:46:44 -0400

You ask if he cheated.... see that's where cheater's paradox comes into play.......when I found condoms in his overnight bag...they were "old". When I found birth control for women in his nightstand they were "from a previous relationship". When I found a collection of explicit photos of real women, they had "sent them to him" a long time ago when they were "involved." When I found his porn collection on the computer it was ok because" all guys do it". Whaen I found tampons under his sink, they were for his "female guests" with no female family members ever visiting him. When I found out he had an explicit i.m. conversation with a woman on my computer when I wasn't at home, I received a dozen roses with an apology and a note stating he only wanted to be with me. For the grand finale... the final straw that he still doesn't know that I saw was a note from a woman wanting to meet up with him for drinks stating she didn't want any more excuses. What conclusion would you draw?

Subject: Re:How do you get past? - by: LoveYourself

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:38:11 -0400

ok then it doesnt sound like he is doing everything he can to prove to you that he is trust worthy. He is picking what he is willing to do and leaving the rest. He doesnt get to pick, hes the one that slept with another woman and brought it home for you to enjoy. Otherwise, you are going to have to suck it up and trust the guy. if he isnt willing to work with you then what do you have left?

Subject: Re:How do you get past? - by: ktstarlette

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:34:08 -0400

We have talked about going to counseling.... he wont go with me. Yes, I have talked to him about how i feel with him going out with his friends and his response is "your gonna have to trust me." And i think that he is going to need some "bro time" with out me. Which i totally understand. If i came to him asking his to call me every hour he would totally flip. it would only cause an argument.

Subject: Re:How do you get past? - by: LoveYourself

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:24:50 -0400

ok so really you dont trust him to go out with his friends alone, understandable. Have you talked to him about that? Heres the thing you cant keep the guy locked up forever, one day he is going to want to go somewhere without you. I understand your fear, I am not disagreeing with you. But if you want to move on you will have to "stop living in the past" so I dont think that anyone has the right answer for you. No one knows what you have to do to get past this. All you can do is try things and see what works for you. So have you asked him to go to counseling with you? What about just making some settle changes over time that you both can live with. Like he will call you every hour while he is gone, so you know where he is. He will get GPS for you, or he will let you come with him. There are so many things he could do. I know some of them sound childish but sometimes when a person acts like a child they get treated like a child. All I am saying is you are going to have to come up with a way to feel comfortable with him being gone. Why cant you go with his friends?

Subject: Re:My BF lies alot & claims they are just white lies - by: LoveYourself

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:19:30 -0400

FRA, just so you know I deleted your email address. Debbie should still get it, we just dont want to leave email on the website for privacy reasons.

Subject: Re:How do you get past? - by: ktstarlette

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:19:24 -0400

Yes I think he has answered all of them. But i got them over time.And I got them when we were fighting about it. That how i found out that it was in a bathroom and he slept with me right after he slept with her. I tried counseling but she wanted to go over all my past and i just wanted to vent. Yes i want to be with him. And no i dont see any cheating cheating signs. But the weather is turning nice and he keeps saying he wants to catch up with his friends. He has been out since i found out a year ago. Yes it is a one time thing. Yes, he does want to be with me. No, i dont feel like i have forgivin him. If i did would i still be fighting about it. There are days where i come up with questions about and it starts a fight. He wants to move forward with me and i keep "living in the past." I want to be with him and i want to forgive him and i want this to work. But, now that the weather is changing and there will come a time that he will want to go out with his friends..... i wont trust him. How can you trust someone who made you dirty? I was clean and had a good life. He came and destoyed it. Thats how i feel anyways. Im dirty.... who would want me now if things dont get better between us?

Subject: Re:Pregnancy and Cheating - by: LoveYourself

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:11:39 -0400

Vicki, just a tip you might want to start your own thread so people will respond. Heres the thing if he really left you to be with her for the baby then he has a sick idea of what a father is. you dont have to be with a woman to be with your child. Not to be mean but do you think he left because he really wanted to be with her? I am not trying to hurt you I am just saying that really to leave someone you love to be with someone you hate all because of a baby that might or might not be yours doesnt make sense.

Subject: Re:How do you get past? - by: LoveYourself

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:07:18 -0400

Has he answered all your questions? Has he done everything you have asked him to do inorder for you to heal? Have you gone to counseling? Something like this is huge, you cant just get over it in a day, a month or even a year. There is no time limit on this stuff. But if your desire is to be with him you will get over it one day. You will never forget but you can get past it, in time. Do you want to be with him? do you see anymore signs of him cheating? If I understand you right this was a 1 time mistake and he has tried to show you that he wants to be with you, right? Give yourself time, dont rush things. If you really want to be with him and you want it to work in time you will get this resolved. Do you feel like you have forgiven him? I mean really forgiven him?

Subject: Re:Venting - by: LoveYourself

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:03:41 -0400

Jen, This is what i wanted you to do, let it out. What your saying is not wrong, you are correct. Here's what I see, I see someone that has been hurt and is angry about it. did he cheat on you too, or just lie? I just want you to get out the anger, let it go and then move on. Dont be affraid to post here, that was never my intention to make you feel like you couldnt post. I wanted to see you let go of this anger and move on to a happier life. You can do it, you can move past this. I hear anger in your words, but I still hear a strong woman in there somewhere. Keep posting, over time you will feel like your own self again.

Subject: Re:Venting - by: POed

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:56:47 -0400

Ok I will add I would like to see more information on this site about abuse with possible links to the information. To me chronic lying and /or cheating is abuse. I know this site is about deception but I have read some posts that clearly mention abuse or serious involvement with someone who not only lies but is also dangerous. Being involved with someone who chronically lies and or cheats is dangerous and destrustive to one's self esteem and ability to trust their own judgement. It is about the destruction of their core, their soul. I really would like to believe there could be a happy ending for someone involved with a liar but all I keep hearing is pain by getting reinvolved or continuing to stay. I've been there. Just a little side note, one of my liar's favorite quotes was "Oh what tangled webs we weave." He would just throw that into the course of a conversation without any real rhyme or reason. Like I keep hearing they really do tell us who they are, if we will just listen and open our eyes. I didn't. I closed my eyes and refused to listen because I wanted the dream. Don't close your eyes like I did. Read and learn. Read about narcissm, verbal and emotional abuse and pathology.

Subject: Re:How do you get past? - by: ktstarlette

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:41:36 -0400

Ok well here is how the story goes.... We were dating for awhile and we decided to move in and afer a few months I went to the doc and found out I got HPV which means I had cervical cancer. Well, things were kinda rocky between us b/c of everything that was going on with me and all the docs appt. Then one friday night he went out and did what he did and came home and slept with me. Only a fews hours after sleeping with her. So, I had a gut feeling about something happening that nihgt so I lied to him and told hom that I got another std. He eventually came out with the truth. He had a one night stand with a chick on his friends bathroom floor. So, after a long road I let him move back in. Since then he has fone wonders. He has been home all the time. He has stepped up the bills and he has really stepped up with being a good rolemodel for my daughter. He goes out of his way to do things for us and for me. He really has changed for the better. But, I cant see that. I still bring it up. I still fight about it. Everytime i go to the doc its like hell for a few days between us. I just cant seem to forget or forgive him. I let him in my life, my home, my duaghters life and this is how repays me? Its been a year and Im still hauntedby it. Im just lost......

Subject: Re:my lies - by: POed

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:28:54 -0400

Is he a judgemental person? I get the impression he may be. Were you afraid he would reject you if you weren't divorced or think less of you if you weren't working? He's trying to find the logic in why you lied in the first place. If he is a harsh critic of other people or is harshly judgemental then that could be what you feared by telling him the truth. That could be what you need to talk to him about.

Subject: Re:How do you get past? - by: LoveYourself

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:27:17 -0400

ok lady, its your choice if you want to stay with him, only you can make that choice. So i have to ask, what has he done to make things better for you? What has he done to prove to you that he is sincer? How long ago did you find out? No one should fault you for staying, this is your life. You need to live your life to the fullest and you get to pick what you want to do. If you could provide a little more insight into the situation you might get somemore advice. thanks

Subject: Re:Venting - by: LoveYourself

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:23:02 -0400

yes, yes, yes!!!! How do you feel right now? Did it make you feel better to get some of it off your chest? This is exactly what I wanted you to do, good job. I mean this with all sincerity, really. keep going, there are so many people here that will listen, take advantage of it.

Subject: Re:I just dont know anymore!! - by: ktstarlette

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:19:12 -0400

I have to say that im on the other end of end of things. My boyfriend cheated on me a year ago and we are still fighting about it. There are days that go by and i dont think of it then there are days that thats all i think about. The only difference is that my boyfriend cheated on me with a one night stand in a friends bathroom and slept with me as soon as he got home( we were living together). And with that mistake came an std. I got stuck with a std from his bathroom night. Believe, we know that your sorry and we know that it was a mistake it just takes time for us to get it over it. If you love him then you should wait. Its the least you can do.

Subject: Re:How do you get past? - by: ktstarlette

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:08:40 -0400

I understand that but I am staying with him. We have had a lot going on betwen us that it just can't end like that. And besides I already have it so whats the point of leaving him?

Subject: Venting - by: POed

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:08:22 -0400

I've been advised that maybe I need to vent so here goes....I don't know how many times in the course of my involvement with my liar, I have questioned and doubted myself and my own judgement. I've ignored or repressed my gut feelings and chose to believe his lies and excuses rather than face the hard cold reality of what I am dealing with, a drug and porn addicted emotionally abusive liar. I come here to this site and read about so many people that are in so much pain and so full of self doubt and feelings of inadequacy and I want them to know IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT. There is nothing they can do to change somone's pathology, all they can do is save themselves further pain. To me personally being lied to has been very destructive to my self esteem and it's an insult to me. I see no hope in my relationship with my liar. We are at the end of a long twisted exhausting road. If I wanted to believe we have hope I would have to choose to believe his lies and continue to ignore my feelings and intuition. I will not do that any more. My goal in coming here to this site is and always has been to tell people to trust their judgement, dig for more evidence and when found not to ever go back to pretending that everything is ok when the evidence clearly proves it isn't. Learn about pathology, about the kind of behavior that can not be changed. Learn how to recognize your red flags and heed them. Know that if you are involved with a lying manipulator you can get out and be ok. and so can I.

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: Marie H

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:46:43 -0400

He�s not being held accountable, that�s why he is being the way he is being. YOU are not holding him accountable. He is being given a free get out of jail card, that�s why he is not being accountable. You are allowing him to control this�that�s why he is not being accountable. You say you know you just can�t sit back and let it go�but that�s what you are doing, is it not? My dear, you don�t get respect from people because you ask for it, it is given to you because you earn it. You earn it by respecting yourself first. So many men in particular see counseling as an indication of weakness. First of all, let�s call an ace an ace�it IS a sign of weakness. It says - hey I don�t have all the answers�I have a weakness. If everyone had all the answers and tools to solve their problems there�d be no problems. We�d never have a thing to worry about because we could solve all our own problems if and when they arise. We would have all the answers within ourselves that we could ever need. Well, we don�t have all the answers for everything. And men in particular aren�t wired to have the tools to deal effectively with emotions (some of them don�t even know what emotions are to begin with). So, it is actually a sign of real weakness to not admit you have a weakness. To look for help, to seek guidance and find solutions to problems is a sign of strength. Weak people give up and continue making the same mistakes over and over and over and find a way to blame everyone else�s contribution to the problem or their unhappiness. A strong person seeks tools to make themselves better equipped to have happiness within themselves. The more tools, the stronger you are. The more tools the more potential you have to be a better carpenter�ask any carpenter. You can stay and continue on in this marriage the way it is if that�s what you want to do. You don�t need anyone�s permission to do that and you don�t have to gage it by anyone else�s choices. This is your marriage and your life. Do you ever let it go? Do you really mean - do you ever forget it? No, I don�t think you ever do forget �it�. How could that be possible. I once begged and pleaded with anyone who could find me a way to have amnesia. I SO wanted to just forget it all. It seemed the only solution so I would stop feeling the pain. Guess what? I still remember it, way too clearly sometimes, but it doesn�t have the same affect as it did then, therefore it is no longer that much of a painful memory. It�s a memory, and ugly memory, but it�s not that significant anymore. Not always, but usually you can detach from the emotions of those memories to a good degree. If you don�t get the underlying itch that�s scratching at the surface waiting to be dealt with and confronted, it won�t matter if he dances on the Empire State Building and sings a love song to you�you won�t be able to see it for what it is�this �thing� will always cloud the sentiment behind his good intentions. That�s not fair to him and that�s no fair to you. Please don�t misunderstand, I�m not trying to talk you into doing this any way other than the way it works for you, what you feel is best for you. But from what you are saying and reading between the lines of what you are saying it sounds like you really do want that closure but you just don�t know how to go about getting it. Am I reading this right?

Subject: Re:my lies - by: rollergrl

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:41:00 -0400

Thank you for your repsonse. I lied about past things I was afraid he would judge me on. When we first met, which was 4yrs ago I had just lost my job, but told him I was still working. At that same time I had been separated for 3yrs awaiting the final papers to get processed but told him I was already divorced. Then from there just little white lies on things I am afraid of his reaction or judgement. We talk and to my understanding get past it....then every four months he blows up about the past and we are back to square one. I havent lied since and have vowed not to and DONT intend to but he says he needs me to explain my thought process in order for him to understand and trust the woman he loves... I dont know what to do.

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: goingcrazy5150

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:12:36 -0400

I know i cant just sit back and let it go , but really thats the only option i see right now - he wont own his mistakes, thats how this guys is built, why i dont know. But i'm not breaking him down and he wont seek help. cuz then he'd be weak right - just like the other cheaters out there they cant own their mistakes. I honestly believe in my heart i will never get the respect i need to get to the bottom of what happened. And its not like i'm asking if it's ok to stay and deal with it do people out there deal with it and be happy and work through it without knowing the truth? i think im just looking for some answers to help me along and trust in my gut that i am staying because of that "something" and it's ok? Are there similar situations like mine,like i said whats keeping me here - i love this man even tho he crushed us, but i want to see the effort is not bullshit he is putting in this relationship. How does one get past that without knowing the whole truth? is it possible? and do you truly let it go? I see he wants me to forgive him on how hes treating me but theres that little voice that just says to me -could this be him tryig to fix this or not just a line of bs??

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: Marie H

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:48:14 -0400

Wait, wait, wait. No, you do NOT have to come to terms with him not opening up about it. You do NOT have to settle. This process of recovery isn�t a one sided negotiation. No! He doesn�t get to step out of your marriage, have an affair, break your heart, ask for blind forgiveness and sweep it under the carpet and simply move on. Hold The Horn! That isn�t how it works. If you need to have something happen, like disclosure of hidden issues from the affair in order to cleanse yourself from the anger and pain and confusion, then that�s what you need to have happen. The recovery process doesn�t get to be written by what and how he thinks it should happen for you. That gets written by what you need to happen and what you need him to give you. However, if you do NOT need this closure (and only YOU know that) than you can disregard all of this. Some people feel they don�t need that. Most do, but there are some people who simply choose to put it in the past and only look to the future and leave it all behind. I�m not so sure that works out for the good in the long haul and I�m not so sure it really does allow for getting to the bottom of the barrel of what happened and why (by not examining �what� it was), but some people do go that route and no one can criticize them for it. It�s what works for them. I truly believe you CAN recover from infidelity, better said, there is hope you can recover from infidelity. I really don�t believe that once infidelity occurs it�s a death sentence. It�s the end of the relationship as you have known it, but that isn�t always bad thing. Sometimes good things do come from this. Sometimes people (even the betrayed spouse) realizes just how much they truly love their partner and stretch themselves to forgive things that might have at one time seemed to be unforgivable. Look, I�m no genius, but I do know we are all imperfect. All of us. We all make mistakes. I have, you have and everyone reading this post has. We have all hurt someone intentionally and unintentionally at some point in our lives. Some of those mistakes are small in comparison to other mistakes and don�t leave as much of a damage trail, no question about that. This one is a big one. But no matter how big or small the mistake is, if the person who made the mistake (like infidelity) is willing to own up to it, make amends for it and change the behavior (not just the infidelity behavior, but the weakness in them that lead to it) and make restitution to the betrayed spouse, they at least deserve the opportunity to prove themselves worthy of being loved and trusted again. You only get so many chances at that though�that�s where multiple infidelities takes on an entirely different face and approach. But one screw up, as painful as it is to live through, can be repaired, I believe, if the healing process is done to the satisfaction of both parties�not just the betrayed. There�s work to do on both sides�not just one. Just like the recovery process is not one sided, neither is the rebuilding of the relationship. You have choices as to what you need to reconnect the dots, and how you want to handle this�don�t let someone else�s opinion of what that is interrupt your healing process. Whatever that is that you need, that is what you deserve. M

Subject: Re:My BF lies alot & claims they are just white lies - by: FRA

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:17:53 -0400

Hi Debbie, Thank you SOOOO much! I'm sure you know how much I appreciate having someone to 'talk' to. Right now my mum lives with me but I really cannot open up to her because she just had a heart by pass about a year ago. I really do not want her to worry. I know that she's already worrying enough. Like your advise, I normally go to the gym on a daily basis. This help me sleep and feel better. I also try to fill up my time by not saying no to any invitation that comes my way. I always say yes so that I always find myself preoccupied. I do not want to have a lot of time in my hand so I do not find myself a lot of time to think. My husband fits the profile of being a pathological liar. I am the one who's convincing myself that he's not because I find it pretty stupid of me not to notice for so many years. I found out only couple of months ago and everything in my life turned upside down. Once I found out he was lying, I have managed to find out most of the lies he was hiding from me. At least i've learnt enough to make a decision. And as time passes by, I am learning more and more without even trying to find out. Now I am trying my best not to know anymore. It just doesn't matter now because it's over. Although I really wish the pain goes away soon. I am really suffering. I am very tired.... I wish you all the best. I don't know you but yet you are there trying to help. May God bless you! FRA

Subject: Re:I just dont know anymore!! - by: Barbara

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:04:30 -0400

Marie..Yea I totally read that wrong and I apologize. I do see what you are saying and he may feel that way but seeing how he was in his previous marriage and walking away from her and a newborn I don't know if he will feel trapped. Granted I was on the other side of that but who knows at this point. I know I definitely have no clue how he will react to all of this. I think once I talk to him and get that part over with I will be able to sit back with a clearer mind and be able to be happy about this. I am so stressed over him at this point and that is not good. I just want to be happy and enjoy this at this point. I guess if things were picture perfect in this world it would be pretty boring..lol Oh I am already feeling a ton of crazy emotions. This was totally not planned at all. I 100% agree with you that everything does happen for a reason and we may not know them now but at some point in your life you may figure out why this or that has happened. I know for me in these past 8 months I have learned alot about myself and I think I am getting stronger from it as well. Well I am going to talk with him tonight so wish me luck..thanks again your email really made me feel good :) Barbara

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: goingcrazy5150

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:59:10 -0400

Ok the reality of the situation is he will never own up to it � he knows how heartbroken I am about it but he�s a lock box on it, I wish I could get him to open up about it but I guess I need to come to terms with the fact that it is never going to happen.. I don�t honestly know if I will ever be happy even if I was told the truth �which I know would kill me but this is life right? I just feel a pull of energy that keeps me here in this relationship and I cant put my finger on it. I don�t stand for this and never did. I mean nobody wants this but I was always the one that was like cheat?? That�s something you can�t recover from but maybe you can? Even if you don�t know the truth. But now that I�m the one in the situation why am I still here.. SOMETHING IS keeping me here and damn it I don�t know what. I think I will take the �acting approach� for a while and see where it gets me. I know this is gonna be hard to do but you know what I got one life to live and I cant just let this go that easy, he is working at it I see it. I need to sit back for a while and see where the cards fall. Like you all have said the slip up will be there and then it will be my final determination if I will continue this so called journey we are on!

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: noir

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:21:50 -0400

you said in your original post that you're afraid you might be looking for something to be wrong because you want something to be wrong (or something like that)...i think you're probably protecting yourself because you don't want to get blindsided again. i know i do that. it's a defensive thing, and it's pretty normal. this person hurt you, and you don't want that to happen again. so you hope for the best and prepare for the worst. it does take a lot of the joy out of life, but sometimes it's the only thing we can think of to do to protect ourselves. i, too, know what it's like when someone cheats and refuses to own up (or gives you a watered down version of the truth)and then wants to just put it all away. i think that can be worse than hearing all the gory details. if you do as marie has suggested and insist on full disclosure, and you fully express to your husband just how deeply he has wounded you, if he possesses a shred of humanity he might finally grasp what he's done and come clean so you two can move forward. otherwise, how can you be happy if you're always waiting for the other shoe to drop? a word of caution, however: as i said, he has to possess at least a shred of humanity. in my case, i thought if i expressed to my husband how much pain he caused me, that he'd want to do everything in his power to make it up to me. when i did so, i couldn't understand why the only impact my anguish seemed to have on him was that it seemed to annoy him. it was baffling. then it finally dawned on me - he's a sociopath, or at the very least he's a narcissist. my pain was nothing to him. his only interest was preserving himself, and today, i'm still waiting for the next bomb to go off(why i'm still in this is a whole 'nother deal, but i'm of the belief that when it's really time to quit, i'll know). hopefully, your husband is not of the same ilk - i think (i hope) it's a very small portion of cheating liars who actually have a pathology - most are just careless, selfish and use bad judgment, if that gives you any consellation. i wish you the best.

Subject: Re:Pregnancy and Cheating - by: Vickie

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:16:42 -0400

I need advise!!!!! My fiancee & I have been together for 3 years. Back in Nov he cheated on me one time (according to him) & then in December, she tells him she is pregnant. We have split up now for 4 days as I just found out about the affair in March. How do I deal with him leaving me for the other girl that he hates but is insisting on being with for the baby. And the baby may not even be his because she was messing with 5 other guys besides him. HELP! I need some advice on how to deal with my hurting heart from this betrayal.

Subject: Re:Nadine Child Liar - by: POed

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:52:28 -0400

I've never heard that term before. Is this your child you are refering to? Have you enabled her in some way? You can help her by not enabling her. Calling her a liar or telling people she is a liar is not going to help matters. Expose her when you are present and she lies to someone, not by accusing her but by questioning her statement(lie). From everything I have heard/read lying is chronic and does not change unless and until a major crisis happens and even then it's not guaranteed it will be a permanent change. Help her by not enabling her, by not keeping silent when you are a witness.

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: goingcrazy5150

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:53:56 -0400

My goodness woman this is what i need to hear! I have held this in for a long time and i need someone like you to kick me in the a** and wake me up. Yes i feel he has dismissed my feeling because he just wants me to get over it - but what am i getting over like you said i dont know the pieces of the puzzle so how can i fix what i dont know is broken besides my trust. I hope one day this will be in my past and i can be happy again. I can only wait and see what happens, i believe in my heart that i am here for a reason - i am not this person - i ask myself everyday why and i doing this to myself there is a reason im staying i believe in him and i want to believe he can be a better person. there is no excuse for what he has done but i guess in my heart of hearts this is where and whom i am meant to be with. God only puts on your plate what you can handle right? ANd i'm still here.. sometimes unhappy but here. all your help is so much appreciated

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: Marie H

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:36:05 -0400

There�s a difference between being allowed to vent and ramble and spill out your feelings and emotions and actually being heard and understood. You probably know the difference when that happens. I know what you�re saying about the truth never coming out. I can tell you with certainty that it isn�t about whatever that �truth' is that didn�t come out. Yeah, it would hurt to know all the truth, but it isn�t about those facts of the truth. Those facts won�t hurt you�it�s the protective coating, the secrecy, the glorified honor that is placed on those secrets�it�s that somehow his is keeping them as a part of his history, his memory�but not yours. When a couple is committed you assume naturally, that anything that is of importance to that person is equally shared with you�it becomes part of both of your histories. You hear about it, feel it through his recounting of whatever it is that�s important happening in his life. Only this �thing� is only in his memory banks�because you don�t know much about his experience�because he isn�t telling you all of the story, the feelings, the happenings. While you were living in the here and now of your life together�he was off living in the then and there without you�you were on the road alone. Not fair. If he wants to get back on that road of here and now with you�unfortunately for him (sorry bud, you created this monster)�he is going to have to take you back to that bleep in his life at that time and take you with him on that journey he was on then. He is going to have to relive that journey with you by his side�it can�t stay forever packed in his memory without you in that memory. (if he reads this, which wouldn�t be a bad thing btw, sorry to be blunt about it but if you hadn�t been on the road to privacy and secrecy you wouldn�t have to momentarily relive it to give your wife closure. All she wants to do is make sense out of what you did, and understand, from her own eyes, what it was and how you felt, because right now all she has is what bits you will allow her to feel and see and examine. Your wife has to come to terms with it in her own eyes�not your minimal interpretation of it. She needs to have the facts, the sense of it, to come to peaceful terms with it.) By him saying or expressing that he won�t fill in the blanks for you out of fear you will leave him, well isn�t that taking your free choice out of the picture? Isn�t that saying�he will control how you react by not giving you the information you need to make a choice for yourself? The answer is yes, that�s exactly what he is doing. It�s a dance cheaters like to do�.it�s also a dance that doesn�t work well if you are trying to give the injured person a chance to recover. Part of giving you the freedom to choose what you will do, how you will react and how you will process this is by giving you the facts�all of them�not just the ones that tip the scale in their favor. It�s the price they have to pay for damaging a sacred part of a relationship. Trust. You get to choose what to do with it...not be manipulated into choosing one way or the other. By saying that you need to stop analyzing everything is just another form of dismissing your feelings. They are yours, they are neither right nor wrong, they simply - are. You don�t need to stop analyzing anything until you are satisfied that there is nothing more to analyze. So far you haven�t been given all the details, all the parts and pieces to an unresolved puzzle. If he trusts that you love him and trusts that you will forgive him for what he did, he has no other choice (if he wants to maintain your marriage in a healthy way) than to give you closure so you WILL stop analyzing�it will all fall into place properly and the analyzing will stop. Although you say he is hearing you loud and clear, it really does sound like he is not acknowledging your feelings�as if there is something wrong with them. There is NOTHING wrong with them�he needs to learn how to honor those feelings and understand why you have them and where they are coming from. Part of acknowledging how much pain you have caused your spouse is letting them have those feelings. He�s not doing that right now. Why? Because he hasn�t fully grasped the depth of the damage that he caused by what he did. Hey, it is really, really hard to look at yourself and realize you did something so horrific to someone you believe and know you love. It�s a lot harder than a betrayed spouses realizes. Not that it should matter one bit during this, because heck, they deserve to feel just as bad, if not worse. But once the healing process begins, the cheater really has to come to terms that they are in fact capable of causing that much pain. It doesn�t sound like he has done that yet�get to counseling�don�t leave this unresolved, not for you, not for him and not for your marriage. It really will be day one of true, honest, intentional healing for your marriage and I bet you guys will speed along a lot faster than you imagine once that wound is healed. My best, M

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: goingcrazy5150

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:51:59 -0400

I was hoping i would get a response from you marie - you are an amazing woman from other posts i've read.. I agree with you i am revisiting the past because i dont want to go through this again and i have never healed.. He lets me vent about it all the time and just tries to reassure me there was never anything there. I told him if he told me the truth i would be a different person, you created this in me and i dont know who i am anymore. I honestly think if he tells me he is convinced i would leave him. i assured him that if this was the case i would work harder on our relationship and let the past finally go. I just feel like im in limbo. i also agree with you that my gut probably is off because the truth never came out. So of course i think the worse. thats what i do now. And yes i am obsessed with it my mind is non stop and he even says to me that i need to stop analyzing evertthing - if he didnt want to be with me he wouldnt.. I agree. I ahve my good days and my bad i know- i need to refocus of the positive things like how good he is to me now and let the past go. I guess just like anyone else i wanted to hear it from him the truth. but i know the truth and i should put it to rest, i won. rite? trust me he hears me loud and clear but i do need to move on and i just wanted to hear someother views to confirm that its not just me. thanks again marie

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: Marie H

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:14:54 -0400

You are not crazy, but your thinking might be triggered by something that makes you have �crazy thinking�. That doesn�t mean you are crazy. Our guts aren�t ALWAYS on target. Many times they are, but they are not fool proof. Sometimes our perception of things can be distorted by another false perception that we are totally not even aware of when we conjure up these �gut feelings�. If you guys never really had closure on the past affair issues, that can leave you vulnerable to having that distorted misperceived �gut feeling��again. Triggers can bring you right straight back to the initial moment, and back to square one as if it is happening all over again. Sounds like the cell phone being protected is a trigger for you and on comes all the neatly packaged indications that he is obviously cheating, again, just like before. One big flood of triggers. They feed off each other. It becomes an obsession�just like before. We go back in time emotionally. Our reality goes backwards. Of course the dent in your trust that happened because of the first incident adds to that, and it may very well be the reason why these seemingly huge red flags get blown out of proportion and your mind runs with it like a fire out of control. It�s a vicious cycle. Your rationalization of what he is doing now vs. what he did in the past affair could be one of two things. You could either be trying very hard to convince yourself that this can�t possibly be true (him having another affair) because who wants to go through that all again�we want to believe we are safe. OR you could be just looking for something, ANYTHING, to reopen that wound that never had a healthy complete closure. When you are wounded by something without having closure, it will always be there waiting to be addressed. At the end of the day, something - real or unreal - is creating a problem for you. Sounds like there never really was any true accountability on his part for what damage and hurt his infidelity caused back in 94�. There�s still some sense of unfinished business from that affair and damn it! You are ready to face it head on. Problem is, as far as he is concerned, 5 years later, that�s old news and as best he can tell you all have moved way past that. He might not even be aware how something 5 years old could STILL be a problem. Well, bud, it�s because the wound was never completely healed. There is nothing wrong with opening up an old can of worms if it is still a problem for you. In fact, if you DON�T go back and revisit that issues until it is healed, it will feaster, put a wedge between you, and eat away at whatever attempt you make to try to trust him again. It�s unresolved. And apparently he has no freakin� clue that how he is behaving now is re-injuring a wound that is still very fresh in your mind. Talk to him and don�t stop talking till he hears you. And if he refused to acknowledge how you are feeling and address this issue for you and with you, see a counselor for yourself and encourage him to see a counselor with you otherwise you will have to rethink the value he places on your safety and marriage. M

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: goingcrazy5150

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:37:37 -0400

Thanks for the insite, how I caught him before was exactly what you just said his behavior changed - he hated me and turned everything around on me that i was a bad person etc and constantly got in fights so he could leave.. He was never home nor did he want me to know where he was and everything was deleted on his fone - EVERYTHING. But that was in 2004. so i pulled some strings and got his cell phone records and that was a 1 time deal - i cant ask the person to do it again.. i dont want them to get in trouble. I just think i've totally lost it - im seriously considering it may post partum depression - i had our 2nd child 8 months ago. My temper is hot and I just dont know what to do i feel like i do everything and cant focus on anything but be obsessed with what he had done in the past and is it going to happen again??- I have to defend him to some extent and say that really he is trying - he is and i just hope im not pushing him away because i am regressing back to when he did do this to me even though he wont admit it. I know i need help but i wanted to get some other thoughts about this before i do see someone. He's accounted for all the time now. Trust me i know when to keep my eyes and ears open- i learned that the hard way bygiving so much trust - low and behold he took it all away from me. I love him very much but as i told him i am willing to walk away if this is something he cant control and work on- he doesnt agree and says that how could i give up so easily - i said i dont have it in me to fight for you anymore - i "have u" i should'nt have to try and keep you.. if we are meant to be together so be it- i guess i just had a bad day yeseterday and needed someone to talk to about this. The demons inside me are winning and i just dont know how to fight back anymore. I cant ACT happy anymore i dont have it in me thats why im convinced its depression. I check his phone every morning and nothing suspicious at all.. so thats why i am doubting myself maybe this time it is the truth he is telling me - thats why i wanted someone else to see it from my side.. and tell me i am the crazy one.. :) i really do appreciate your help..

Subject: Re:My BF lies alot & claims they are just white lies - by: Debbie

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:31:28 -0400

Fra Oh I wish we were friends! sometimes it's easier if you've seen someone go through it especially if that person isn't the strongest person in the world (like me!) I can tell you are really down and feeling alone - it is so so normal, everything in your life that meant anything to you has gone. Somthing good will come out of it - just think were starting to talk over the internet! My parner of 10 years also tried to keep his family and my friends completely apart from me - i think it's so they can keep you in the dark about all the lies - they don't want you comparing notes with anyone. I should have known better myself, his own son warned me early on saying 'Dad is ok if you can put up with all the lies'!! I never saw his son again after that!! What I'm trying to say is that we've both been fooled for a long period of time and you do start: 1) questioning your own sanity 2) Feeling stupid 3) Blaming yourself 4) Feeling depressed - not wanting to do anthing 5) Feeling life is a bit unreal? (if you know what i mean!) there is alot of other feelings - but they are the main ones! I think there is alot of mileage in 'off-loading' to someone all the lies that he has told you -not a psychologist!(but keep seeing him/her) someone that can be as hurt as you are and take your part. I'm really lucky I've got a fantastic mum who listened and was absolutely incredulous at the lies. Hope you have someone like that! if not keep posting to me I'll ALWAYS read it! I would love to be your friend over the internet! Try not to BLAME YOURSELF or analise yourself too much I know it's easier said than done but you really are NOT at fault here and your NOT stupid -you've just been manipulated to the extreme! It took me a long long time to work out when he was lieing and you have started to work out when yours is lieing (it took you 2 years quicker than me ha ha)I had similar experiences with the stories he told -they would change slightly in the re-telling. In the end I used to know he was lieing but not quite sure what the truth was either. He used to say 'I went to 'some place' I THINK' When he said 'I think' it always let me know he was lieing. I'm only telling you all this in the vain hope that you recognise something and take heart! It is normal to want to sleep your life away because it doesn't hurt when your sleeping! Try if you can though to find some artistic outlet even if your useless at it!Or any outlet! dance class, keep fit class, reading books ANYTHING that will distract you for a bit. I started decorating the place! It's baby steps for you at the moment - don't put yourself under any preassure and never be dissapointed in yourself coz i won't be dissapionted in you! I know what you mean about the pathelogical liar diagnosis - when i looked it up about my partner it didn't really fit either. Compulsive liar description seemed to fit better for mine. What i do know is that he IS A LIAR and in the end deep down you know yours is too! Your a normal healthy human being that is reacting in a normal healthy way My kind regards Fra my thoughts and prayers are with you Debbie

Subject: Nadine Child Liar - by: The Watcher

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 06:44:28 -0400

Have been dealing with a Nadine Child liar - a known liar who does not care if she hurts people and tells mountains of lies. Even makes it up as she goes along. So i wonder - does a Lair ever stop lying ? Or is there no choice but to expose them ....

Subject: Re:Worst day of my life. - by: Marie H

Wed, 08 Apr 2009 06:27:19 -0400

As for the best friends thing�that�s her definition of their relationship, remember that. She perceived this as a relationship and to boot, SHE was HIS best friend. It doesn�t mean he felt the same way. She might have felt he was her best friend for lots of reasons. Maybe she needed someone to just listen, maybe she was having some low self-esteem issues and he was patronizing her simply by having a non-judgmental ear so she could vent, maybe she projected their �friendship� as something she could manipulate and conjured up some fantasy in her head that he was flirting with her. For whatever the reasons in her mind, her concept of what their relationship is/was was just that - HER concept. If he felt the same way I highly doubt he would have just handed over her phone number knowing you would be hot on the phone to set her straight. No doubt his ego was boosted to know SHE felt he was HER best friend, and more than likely she even told him so -- that HE was her best friend. But as it turns out you did the dirty work he was not able to do, as in - �I don�t want to hurt her feelings, but she doesn�t mean anything significant to me, so here�s the number, you end it for me and I can get out of this, this has gone on long enough and in a direction I didn�t intend it to. Glad that�s over with�now let�s move on��as he wiped the sweat off his brow�close call. If he was truly intent on cheating on you or had already cheated (in it�s fully glory), he would have hid the number and definitely NOT given it to you right off. To hide this or attempt to really hide this he would have chewed the piece of paper up and swallowed it. Confirmed cheaters are stupid�but they aren�t that stupid. I am NOT saying this to excuse his behavior�just trying to take this apart to see it more clearly. There�s a few problems here in what happened. First, he shouldn�t have been looking to engage in a �friendship� with another woman that you don�t know about. First error in judgment on his part (or lack of respect for your relationship, or both). He shouldn�t have been saying anything to her that would lead her to believe he was her best friend or that he was even open to being considered her best friend. Once he felt the vibe that she was going in the direction of just being an old friend from high school, he should have clearly defined one way or the other that was NOT his intent and she was misinterpreting their conversations. Maybe he has a weak backbone, maybe he enjoyed the adoration, maybe he didn�t know how to handle it, maybe he was trying to ease her out of it for fear you would find out, maybe lot�s of reasons, but regardless he got himself into a situation by choice and he had no one to blame but himself. Let�s face it, these stupid errors in judgment can take on a lifeforce all their own and before you know it it�s on the wrong course�not all people know how to back out of a bad choice. Doesn�t make it right�but it does many times happen that way. It�s like - oooops! Now what do I do? Not an excuse, but it does sometimes happen that way. Let�s just say, the second he realized this �friend� was heading in a different direction than his intention he could have (and should have) come to you and fessed up how this got started in the first place. He didn�t. He probably thought - ahh, I can handle this, my wife doesn�t need to know what an idiot I am for even talking to this woman in the first place because if I do that the sh*t is going to hit the fan anyway because, damn, how stupid am I. So he might have thought - I can dance my way out of this gracefully and nobody needs to be the wiser. Once he realized he couldn�t control reactions on this �friends� part the web gets bigger and bigger and before you know it it�s out of control. His backs up against a wall and he realizes - well time to face the music. Unfortunately he compounded this whole thing by trying to minimize it (which is a form of deception) and whalla! You got a mess on your hands. It is completely understandable that you would feel hurt and deceived, but if you think about it, what this has really showed you is that there is a huge weak link in your connectedness. A flaw in your husband�s concept of being open and honest and now, a year into your marriage, it tells you a little bit about how he handles conflicts he has within himself. That�s a pretty scary thing to realize when you believe you know the person you have committed yourself to body, mind and soul. It�s a rude awakening to see there is a weak link in this relationship that you didn�t see up until now. That�s a very unsettling feeling. And if my gut is right, he is probably a little scared by how he handled this and why this even happened in the first place. He might be seeing the weak link in himself by what he did and it�s confusing. I�ll bet he does too feel bad about this. He might not be showing you that he feels bad about it, because to do so he would have to admit to himself just how big a mistake this all was in the first place. He would have to admit what he did was much more damaging than he want�s to believe. It�s called denial. The very, very VERY best thing you guys could do is to get immediately into couples counseling to understand how and why this happened. You both need to understand the mechanics of why he isn�t or wasn�t able to come to you as his one and ONLY friend to trust and turn to. While it is NOT your fault in any way that he had ACTED on this need, as he puts it - to have a friend - it could be that you both have some work to do on giving and receiving openess and sharing your feelings with each other. I know the first reaction sometimes to hearing this if to be defensive. Been there myself. But it takes two people in unison to have a connected relationship. The give and take is fluid and transparent. You guys just might not have the tools to know how to do that. Getting them will strengthen your relationship. Learning the skills necessary to really bond with each other and feel safe within your marriage is not something a person is born with. You learn these skills�sometimes you learn them by making mistakes. I�m so sorry you have to go through this process, especially in a new marriage which is fragile. But it is a new way of life and you guys just might need to put your noses to the grindstone and learn more about each other in this journey the two of you chose to go on together. A good strong marriage isn�t magic, it takes a lot of work on both parts, and in a cosmic kind of way, you AND your husband have been given the heads up on the weak link between the two of you. Don�t ignore that weak link and get stuck in the anger and betrayal of this. Do something to strengthen it. Does he have some deep soul searching to do? You bet your butt he does. What he did was wrong, but it sounds like/feels like to me that he has some learning to do and if he cherishes you and your marriage he wants to be closer to you than another human being and create safety within your marriage he will face his weakness, admit his fault, and do whatever work needs to be done on his part to fix this. You guys have many, many years in which to learn, every day, about each other and grow closer and closer but you can�t do that if you don�t identify what it is that needs to be strengthened. M

Subject: Re:Lying about phone calls - by: 2ndworstday

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:16:41 -0400

I'm in a similar situation with my husband. He's been calling a girl he knew in high school (we're both 26) behind my back and lying to me for about two weeks. I was furious when I found out TODAY. I think I scared the crap out of him that I got so upset. I threw our wedding picture out the window and told him that he was going to talk to other women behind my back then he could start walking. He even gave me her number and let me call her to assure myself he was not cheating. Afterwords, he called her and said he couldn't be friends with her because he hadn't told me about it and now I'm too upset at the situation. I feel hurt and betrayed. I'm a little better now that he's called her and ended the friendship, or so he say - we'll see. If its over then I'm happier but the trust issue will be there for a while. I can't express on here how hurt I am though. My heart is shattered because he was my best friend and my everything. He lost a part of that tonight.

Subject: Re:need advice... should i tell him the truth? - by: 2ndworstday

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:59:02 -0400

You are making him jealous. You are not honest and he can't trust what you say to him. You thought about "thanking your friend" but not once about how you would be hurting your boyfriend. He actually has every right to be pissed and you should come clean and tell him what you really did. You didn't have coffee with someone, you went to their apartment. That's a HUGE deal.

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: mustanggrl

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:51:59 -0400

Clearly you already know the answer or you wouldn't be posting here. My boyfriend pulled the same sh*t. When he was snoring away, I checked his phone and he had been talking to four other women that day. I jotted down their phone numbers and called one of the women. I told her I felt that if he was playing her, she would appreciate the "heads up". Turns out, he had been trying to get her to meet him at his place or for a drink the entire time we were together. One of the other girls is from Texas. I thought it was stupid for him to trade me, here in the flesh, for girls that he isn't even going to meet. I talked to his mom as well as his best friend and he is a compulsive liar. Your husband is clearly guilty and if I were you, I'd drop his damn phone in the toilet...remove the SIM card first so you can snoop on all his numbers. He is a dog who wants his cake and eat it too. Set up the online bill pay for the cell phone and you can view every text, every call, etc. Only a cheater has the bill non-itemized and refuses to show his wife. Bust up the damn phone, find out which internet sites he is on, just call one of the girls and ask her...GIRL POWER!

Subject: Worst day of my life. - by: 2ndworstday

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:27:30 -0400

My husband of one year has been caught lying to me about a girl that he has been talking to. He knew her from high school and found her on myspace. He talked to her for weeks behind my back. I knew something was up and asked him about it over and over again. Finally, today he admits to talking to her but he doesn't think he did anything wrong. He lied straight to my face for weeks! When I found out I told him to give me her number or leave the house. He decided to fork over her number so I called her. She assured me that nothing was going on, etc and that they were BEST FRIENDS. I've never heard of her before in my life and here is this strange woman saying she's my husband's best friend. I feel betrayed and deeply hurt. My heard is aching but he doesn't feel that bad about what he did. He says he didn't cheat and needed a friend. He lied to me and doesn't seem to be taking this seriously at all. He did call the woman and tell her the friendship was over. He also promised to never talk to her again or form friendships in which he felt the need to hide from me. How can I trust him though? What do I do? Should I let this go or should be not be let off the hook so easily for being a liar and breaking my trust for him?

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: a fool husband

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:58:45 -0400

You are not the fool. You are the loving wife, our best friend, the woman of our dreams. I hurt my wife badly because of issues I had with myself. I let another woman make me feel important and needed, even though my wife never faultered in that area. I had 2 month relationship, mostly texting and talking, then we met and had sex. Immediately, I knew it was the biggest mistake of my life. I was with a woman that I knew I wouldnt even look at twice or even once, if I wasnt having the issues I was having with myself at the time. I had a beautiful, loving , sexy smart wife at home who was my world, but I chose not to share with her what I was going through for fear she would not respect me like I needed her to. Let me give you my perspective about what my affair was all about. It was all about being wanted and feeling wanted.....THE OTHER WOMAN MEANT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO ME, ..the sex was not good at all!! It was not the passionate union that my wife believes it was ....the first night we were together, we had sex, I cried the whole way home. Then, I made another mistake and spent the night with her 5 days later, I drank till I was drunk just to get through it! When morning came, I couldnt wait to get rid of her...I am not proud of what I did. . Will I ever do that again, NEVER EVER ! I see the hurt and pain I caused soo many people frommy dear sweet wife who never deserved this to family ,friends and co-workers. ANY MAN CAN MAKE A MISTAKE. BUT, A GOOD MAN WILL REALIZE HIS MISTAKE AND DO EVERYTHING HE CAN TO FIX IT. Your husband is trying to fix it, help him.

Subject: Re:my lies - by: POed

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:33:07 -0400

We need more information. What did you feel the need to lie about and why? The fact that you did lie to him may make it impossible for him to ever trust you again no matter what you do at this point. It would be best to look at the issue of why you lied and vow not to do it again even if this relationship ends.

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: betrayed wife

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:29:41 -0400

ABYSS, SO GLAD YOU HAVE A GLIMMER OF HOPE TODAY! I hope you have many more to follow! Like I said, its been 8 months for me and I do have a bad day every now and then. (Sunday i burned my wedding album....) I just felt at the end of my rope. This will definately not be something you will ever forget, and I do believe good men can fail , we all can , given the circumstances. Give your marriage a chance...he could have left you for her, HE DID NOT. Keep us posted, I look forward to the day when you are happy again!

Subject: Re:A little help please???!!! - by: POed

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:52:42 -0400

No you are not crazy. You've noticed changes in his behavior that are reasons for concern. Sometimes in the beginning cheaters are nice to their spouse out of guilt. That may be the case here. It's unfortunate you tipped your hand already and let him know you are suspicious because if he is cheating he will be extra cautious. Now you have to take a DEEP breath and ACT like everything is fine and keep looking. Don't ask him any more to see the phone bill instead wait until he is asleep to check his phone. Just curious but how did you catch him last time? The fact that he denied cheating before and it hasn't been dealt with of course is going to increase your alertness, suspicion and self doubt. The fact that he never took responsibility for his choice and owned up to it is the reason why you are doubting yourself. DON'T! Do your very best to ACT and not confront him until you have more evidence and then it needs to be enough to warrent a decision by you.

Subject: Re:I just dont know anymore!! - by: Marie H

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:24:29 -0400

Barbara, please don't misunderstand, I didn't mean you were trapping him, what I was saying was that he may feel trapped, that's not the same thing. A person could feel trapped if they feel obliged to do something because of a sense a responsibility or the 'right thing to do'. That's the context with which I meant the word trapped. It will work out, just have good intentions and keep that in the forefront of your decisions. It can still be a happy time in your life, it may be a different kind of happy, but it can still be happy. With love in your heart, having a child I think is always a happy thing. Harder than if things were picture perfect? Yeah. But that doesn't have to take away from the happiness of having a child. Try not to confuse the two in your heart. It will be hard, it does change the picture, no doubt, but it doesn't have to degrade becoming a mother under any circumstances. You will still love the child, if that's the direction you intend to go in. You will probably feel lots of different emotions, new emotions, just ride them out for a little while, don't let them take over. Sounds like this was something you weren't planning. Plans change in life all the time, but we have to be flexible when we are faced with these changes in order to learn and grow. I know I might be getting a little too philosophical, but I firmly believe things really do happen for a reason. Rather than look at this as a bad thing Barbara, try to find the gift in this difficult time. The gift is an opportunity to grow and learn. I have learned the most valuable lessons that have given me more strength than I could imagine from very, very difficult times. Now I won't mislead you to think I ever welcomed those bad experiences at the time, he** no, but in my heart I held on to the comfort of knowing that somewhere in here is a valuable lesson, and I can either let the bad experience damage me OR I can get something good from it. For me, I always choose the latter. It's what has kept me sane for 53 very hard years. I hope you will too. I pray you will too. Anyway, you'll get through this...just be open to getting the good from it, from all of it, no matter how this goes. Marie

Subject: Re:Signs of Infidelity - by: anonymous

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:01:31 -0400

Then just do it. You will never be sorry you did. I was married to a serial cheater too. I have never been so proud of myself for standing up and doing what I had to do. Respect yourself or noone else ever will.

Subject: Re:Mom is a compulsive liar - by: Muffin

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:36:58 -0400

I have been covering up my mom's lies for my whole life. I put her on such a pedestal because she raised me on her own and truly sacrificed everything to make sure I would have more opportunities than she, but I cannot cover up for her any more. She has alienated herself from almost every member of our family (and always has excuses like "they shunned her for not being wealthy" or "having a child out of wedlock", ect.)In fact I only truly know 7 members if my ENTIRE family because she refuses to communicate with them. Now I question why I have no relationship with my dad...was it because he didnt want me (her version), or was it because she pushed him away and then lied about it so people would pity her? She is constantly interfereing with other people's problems and the result...she is all alone. Just recently she blew up at my cousin and his girlfriend over frivolous things that had nothing to do with her. I know it will take a long time for he and his mother to get over it, if ever. I don't want her lying to tear up my already very small family. It makes me very sad that she is living this way and I don't want to stop communication with her, but i feel sick just knowing how much she lies. I know if I confront her she will accuse me of being un-loyal and hang up on me, possily never speaking to me again (that's how she has handeled any other situation in her life) I love her, but I cannot live this way anymore. She is so alone, I wonder what she may do if she feels she could lose me and our tight bond. There is no clear cut answer here. For the very first time in my life I feel uncontrollably confused and don't know if i will be able to find the right solution.

Subject: my lies - by: rollercoaster grl

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:56:10 -0400

Hi, I am looking for some advice regarding some of my past lying behavior towards my boyfriend. we are trying to move past it now, but things constantly keep getting dug up during other small disagreements. Ive tried to explain my actions but he says he still needs me to tell him something about my past lies that will make him feel safe to move foward to a future together. A male perspective would be appreciated or a womans too of coarse.:)

Subject: Re:snooping - by: Been There Done That

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:37:18 -0400

Don't ignore your gut. If your gut tells you something is not right, then something is not right. I had a gut feeling for a month that my guy was up to something. There were no outward signs of him cheating, but I did catch him a a couple of white lies (about unrelated things that really wouldn't matter if he had told me the truth). I asked him a few indirect questions because my gut kept pushing me, I got answers that calmed my gut . . . I never ever thought he would cheat. He just didn't seem the type. Still, my gut continued to nag at me. I confided in my sister who told me not to ignore my gut and to snoop. So I did it, I snooped. I have a major problem with snooping because I have been raised to respect peoples' privacy. I felt terrible about doing it but I was desperate for answers. I found that someone who I was very deeply in love with was cheating on me and had been for the duration of our relationship. I found a secondary cell phone with extravagently high cell phone bills and letters from his other lover. I sometimes have that twinge of guilt about what I did, BUT, I did what I had to do, what I was driven to do, to get the information and answers that I needed (and deserved). I cannot say strongly enough, if you have a gut instinct about something, DO NOT IGNORE IT. Good Luck and I hope all works out for you.

Subject: Re:I just dont know anymore!! - by: Barbara

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 11:03:25 -0400

This is a serious mess and I have been so stressed out since Friday when I found out. I am actually not thinking at all that this will bring us back together. I am in total fear to even tell him but I have to cause he needs to know. I am thinking about everything and really keeping a clear head about it. I DO NOT want him to come back to me because of a baby that is not how I want things to work out. So this is definitely going to be a long conversation me and him will have to have. I am totally expecting the worst with him. I truly hope he doesn't see it as a trap cause I would never do something like that. I know I want this relationship to work but I have been around a lot in my life and a baby does not fix things at all. I definitely as you know have ALOT to think about as well as discussing this with him. I by no means am looking at this as a wonderful happy thing (which sucks cause I always imagined this being a happy time but its not at all). I am going to the doctors today to get a full exam and find out everything there is to find out. I plan on talking to him within the next two days ugh... Thank you for your care and concern it truly does mean alot and I will keep you posted on how this all goes.

Subject: A little help please???!!! - by: goingcrazy5150

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 10:46:07 -0400

Help me please, I have a gut feeling that my husband is texting and talking to someone. The reason I question this is because that f****** phone is attached to his hip. Whereas, before he would leave it on the counter or table etc. But recently I�ve noticed he can�t put that damn thing down. Which is a red flag for me. Years ago I busted him for cheating and still never admitted it he was just �helping her� whatever I�m still trying to work past it but here we go again and I just feel like he is up to no good. I have to say though that he is very very compassionate to what I have to say and looks to make me happy but I think is all BULLS***. Is something wrong with me that I am looking for something to be wrong or am I just over reacting about how he is being. He was not like this when he did it b4 her was angry and hated me but now loves me and talks to me like he actually gives a shit. I over analyze everything, even when he goes to the bathroom I feel he�s texting someone like I cant talk now I�ll chat in a bit. I think I hit a wall and don�t know what to do.. He wont bring home his records and I�ve told him make it right by showing me there is nothing and � he just can�t do it he said there are no records its not itemized.. I�m not convinced I told him to change it to where it is itemized. Nope wont do it.. said there nothing going on and that�s that.. So please any enlightenment would help.. Am I crazy??? And yes I think every girl he talks to he is screwing. So thanks to him for ruining my trust� Im scared. what to do???

Subject: Re:My wife is cheating on me - by: Marie H

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:44:46 -0400

Postmaster, your reaction is very common. I myself, even with more concrete evidence than you have at this point, which all came out at one time, presented to me by someone else...my first reaction, the first words out of my mouth were - There must be a reasonable explanation to this. I said this while holding a love letter/card signed by another woman to my husband, and a bag of gifts given to him by her that were very obviously idicative of a relationship. Moments later I looked over our cell phone bills and discovered who some of these numbers he was calling were to...the affair woman that gave him the gift and cards. Disbelieve that we can be that deceived, that the person we loved and we trusted loved us and wouldn't hurt us, that we are that blind to have missed the cause, to not have a reason that makes sense...our first reaction is to deny reality. It's the hardest step in this process. That's part of the reason we have this need to verify the suspicion in front of us. It makes no sense, it goes against OUR reality, it doesn't fit...we have to convince ourself it is real. Very hard, yes, very hard. I'm only saying these things that you could do because like myself and many others, we have learned, the very hard way, how this works and what doesn't work. You'r knee jerk reaction is no different...but you can save yourself some steps if it's done the right, more productive way. Kinda like getting a flu shot...it's going to hurt no matter what...but sometimes you can go about doing this the least difficult way...knowing either way it's going to be rough. There's no way around that, unfortunately. Hang in there and once again...think with your mind...try to not react with emotions. M

Subject: Re:My wife is cheating on me - by: Postmaster

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:35:28 -0400

Hi Marie, Thanks again. You know what I can't really believe she is doing this. I wanted to convince myself for days that there is certainly a reasonable explanation for all this, but I just cann't anymore. It is really killing me. We have been together for 4 years now, and I have done anything to make her happy.I am asking myself all the time if she can give one only one reason why she is cheating on me. We have got a daughter and this is making things more complicated. I will certainly follow your advice, but to tell you the truth sometimes I just want to go home and confront her with everything. I know this is not wise, but to live with somebody who is cheating on you is not that simple. P.S: Her boss is also married and have 3 kids. I will send more whenever I get more information/evidence. Thanks a lot

Subject: Re:My wife is cheating on me - by: Marie H

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:19:29 -0400

As to her schedule of whereabouts not being suspect, let me share something with you. My H (soon to be ex), had 4 affairs over the period of 15 years, mabye longer, not sure...but at any rate, he was ALWAYS on time, leaving for work and coming home from work. When he was not at work there were no missing moments or time away from home, no sneaking out, no excuses to have to go somewhere...all the affairs took place while he was suppose to be at work. ALL of them. Imagining - 15 years of continuous affairs and not once was did he do anything off schedule. That's a very long freakin' time. The ONLY clue, which wasn't even a clue for most of the time because of the nature of his job, was the phone and text messages. Sometimes he was unavailable by phone while at work, but again, the nature of his work was a very plausible reason for that. No clues. None. I know it's very hard to believe, but I have no reason to make this up. That's the part that kinda makes my situation so crazy making...there were NO CLUES that stood out as clues. Nothing. He was THAT good at it. So don't falsely find comfort that she is where she says she is suppose to be, I've learned it means nothing. If a person wants to cheat and NOT get caught...they will find a way to do it. If she is having an affair she is doing something, somehow, somewhere and at sometime that you haven't figure out yet OR you haven't discovered yet. I think, having learned from my experience, that perhaps they do this when it is right in your face. In other words, if she 'went missing' for inexplicalbe times that would be too much a red flag and up's the 'getting caught' factor. Sometimes the obvious is less obvious. I would say given what you said, you might need a PI or something along those lines. It is amazing to me that a person who is cheating can be as bold as they are, but some cheaters are smarter cheaters than others. The phone logs are not proof she's having an affair. They are only proof that she is in contact with someone behind your back (and it's a male and it's her boss). Before you confront, again, I would strongly suggest you get more hard cored evidence in whatever way you need to do that. Any loophole and they will talk their way out of it. Confirm first, confront later. M

Subject: Re:fear of a sociopath's retaliation... ?! - by: Marie H

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:06:07 -0400

It definitely sounds like she is a sociopath. I feel for you because I own one of them myself (well for the time being anyway). Not to the level as the one your talking about (there are different levels of sociopaths), but she certainly fits the description for all the criteria. Here's what I've learned since this diagnosis was finally made. They are completely goal oriented and self centered. The world outside of themselves does not exist, it revolves around them and only them. The rest of 'us' are only pawns. Really, I don't say that lightly...it's true...we really are mere pawns, insignificant, not even visable in the landscape of their life. The people in their life are dispensable without giving a second thought to our existence. There is no feeling, good or bad, in how they perceive our presence...it is all self-oriented. To 'get' is the only goal. To 'give' is something not even in their vocabulary. The concept isn't something they can comprehend. With that said, and I am sure you understand completely what I'm saying, the only way to derail a sociopath is to stop having what they are trying to 'get' from you. Any recognition that they even exist, any food to feed their ego, any reaction you can have to them has to stop. When they do not 'get' anything from you - i.e., reaction of any kind - they will find another prey to feed off of. It doesn't matter to these types of people if it is good attention/recognition or bad attention/recognition. It is simply - recognition - that's all they want. They are blood suckers and when they are finished with the last drop of blood, and there's nothing let to get from you they will, without giving it a second though, move on to the next victim and you won't even be a memory to them. Not even a fleeting one. Having had to also understand how this all works with my H was a very difficult concept to grasp fully. It goes so against all rationale that a normal person can grasp. People who have not had a confirmed sociopath in their life can only understand some of this. The best teacher is actually having lived through it. It is just so pervasive. Anyway, the only solution I have yet to find in dealing with this (and I've scoured the net in search of it) is to blank them out of your life totally. Become invisable to them. Do not acknowledge them or their existence. Stop feeding them completely. They will resist and sometimes they resist in a very big way, but eventually when they find another victim (I'm so sorry to put it this way) they will forget all about you in an instant. It's how they survive. The biggest problem I have encountered is coming to terms with knowing, without a doubt, that there will always be another victim out there waiting as prey and knowing there is nothing I can do to stop that process. Until these people are marked with a word of warning on their forehead before a person becomes their vicitim...there will always be on. Makes me sick to think of it...but there really and truly is nothing you can do...it is out of our hands. My very, very, VERY best wishes to you, and please know I send you energy from my own strength to get through this...it so very hard. M

Subject: Re:My wife is cheating on me - by: Postmaster

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:05:30 -0400

Hi Marie, Thank you so much.Actually,the only material evidence I have untill now is her calls/sms logs received from the phone company. I forgot to mention that she comes home almost at time, as she used to do.Ther is almost no change concerning this. However, on Saturday and Sunday, she always leaves to wash her car, which is new.Normally, she washes her car every time in a while, but the last time every weekend and she comes back home within one hour or two. I am doing my best to track her down.However, if I don't find anything else, can I use her sms/calls overview stating all details (date, hour....)as evidence? Actually, lets say even if she doesn't have anything with him, why does she send him 15 sms's per day. Thanks in advace. Waiting for your advice.

Subject: Re:My best friend the CL/PL, what to do? - by: Marie H

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 06:47:00 -0400

Simon, it doesn't matter what way you get a CL out of your life and stop the craziness of what they do...what matters is that their behavior stops affecting the person they are lying to. The end result is to disrrupt the affect it has. Confronting a CL is like chasing your tail and will make you dizzier and dizzier in an attempt to get them to stop. You could spend more energy on trying to get them to be honest and walk the straight and narrow, but it will only make you dizzier. They stop when they want to stop. The only real control you have is how it affects you. M

Subject: Re:My wife is cheating on me - by: Marie H

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 06:31:37 -0400

Postman, Your question first�no you are not wrong about all this, if your question pertains to suspecting infidelity. It most certainly sounds like the classic behavior of someone who is hiding a secret relationship of some kind. Hiding the phone/being protective of it�s whereabouts, deleting calls/sms, calls being made when they are alone and private�.all huge red flags. Now that you know these connections are with - a man, her boss - it doesn�t take much to add this up to point in the direction of an affair. Confrontation with a person who is actively in an affair will be ugly and work against you unless you have concrete, indisputable evidence that can�t be dismissed. The first and biggest mistake betrayed partners make when they suspect an affair is to confront the person before they have solid evidence that can�t be rationalized away or talked away. Especially when the red flags are fairly evident. Now if you had flimsy reasons to suspect an affair that would be different�but with what you�ve said thus far, it�s a good bet you are on to an affair. So don�t shoot yourself in the foot. Most of us have done that atleast once in this discovery process only to find out it doesn�t work well in our favor. In fact, it can work against you. Without knowing the details of your wife�s routine and the logistics of her work environment you will have to figure out a way to find out what she does and what her activities are during her work day. If you have the wherewithal to hire a PI then do it. If not, as hard as this is going to be, you will have to back off doing anything that will alert her that you are on her trail so to speak. Act normally, keep log of her calls, get the numbers that are suspect and then retreat. Let it go. If she thinks you are sniffing a trail it will disintegrate and you will be back to starting from scratch. Don�t question, don�t show suspicion, don�t accuse and above all don�t make assumptions you can�t back up with facts. Key---facts. The other thing that helps is to vary your routine. She knows your routine as well as you know hers. More than likely she will rely on you being predictable, so change the predictability. This is when they get sloppy with hiding things. This throws a monkey wrench in their plans and leaves them vulnerable to getting caught at what they are doing. The best way to win is to beat them at their own game, playing by the same rules of engagement. I say all this if you are trying to get at the truth behind what she is hiding from you, if that�s what you need to do. But the best advice is to get more information about what it is she is doing that supports the theory that she is having an affair. Be smart and don�t show your cards until you know what cards she is holding. You�ll be met with distortion, illusion and crazy making if you don�t. This is really, really hard to do, I know, but if you don�t think �smart� it�s going to be an even harder road to travel and it could get even uglier. Good luck and hang in there. If it turns out she is having an affair, to whatever degree, hang on�there�s support to get through it. Just know there is support to get through it. M

Subject: My wife is cheating on me - by: Postmaster

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 05:48:56 -0400

Hi all, Two months, I have noticed that my wife has changed a bit.She takes too much care of herself, she refuses to sleep with me, and when I touch her or want to kiss her, she becomes irritated. We had a discussion last time, and she went to sleep alone for a week. I realised that she is sending and receiving sms's to someone.She feels that I know something and suddenly things become better and she asked if she may sleep with me and asked if we may take a shower together. Normally she never answers her GSM immediately when I call her. When I send her an sms for example I have to wait more than an hour to get an answer.She doesn't care about her GSM and I see it everywhere, and when I ask her if I may use it to call somebody she never refuses. However, now all that has changed. She takes her phone everywhere she goes, and when I ask her to use it she says for example: well, I will have to call my mother first because I called her an hour ago and she didn't answer. So, she goes upstairs and after 10 minutes she comes back and hand me the gsm over. Saturday, when she was away for a moment I took the calls/SMS log review she receives from the GSM operator/company. I found out that there are 14 pages with the same number either calls or sms's. (12 pages of sms's and the rest calls). I have called this number and it turns out that this is her boss number. She registered this number under a female name.Yesterday, I found that she has deleted the name and the number as well. The most sms's she sends are in the morning when I leave home, when she is at work with him or in the evening when I am not home.She sends him almost 15 sms per day. The question now, am I wrong about all this? Please help.

Subject: Re:Abyss- The Other Side of Betrayal - by: jalela

Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:14:55 -0400

I tried, I forgave, I believed, I hoped. Not to sound bitter, but all my giving, forgiving, belieiving and trust is all on us, beause as the victim we are the ones doing all the work. We have to trust, we have to forgive, we have to believe. For me it was all in vain. I stayed with him for another 8 monyhs. Only to find out that there was at least one other girl he was dating before he even met me and continued. He told me, he wrote me a letter professing his love to me, but had moved in with her when I kicked him out, but it was me that he wanted to be with. I sent her the email. We met, there are so many others too. But, she was told I was a roommate, that I ha=d photoshopped all the pictures of him and I. That I had gotten him arrested, he had nothing to do with me, yet we were still dating, and he was proclaiming his love o me. It makes me sick to know I was so used, as is she. I hope she is smarter then me and runs. I didn;t for much to long. Trust can be rebuilt, I believe in forgiveness, I believe in honesty, for me it was him, not me. Hw=e was and is a psychopath, who moves viciim to victim. And it has ripped contact with him since I met her. I finally realized that I want a mutually loving and respectful relationship, and even though it hurts and I love him, he is incapable of hose kinds of emotions and honesty that I need, because tht is how I live my life.

Subject: Re:My best friend the CL/PL, what to do? - by: Simon

Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:44:39 -0400

Thanks for the replies. The decision to lie for my friend isn't the reason for this topic, that was just a backstory. Sorry, didn't mean to throw you off. It was only once that I had to lie for him, that's only to avoid any drama (I'm only his friend, not his life partner), and I've already decided not to lie for him again. But that was a private convo WITH his gf, she brought up the lie he told her, and either I killed his relationship right there, or corroborate the lie and avoid the headache. But I digress, the reason for the post was if I should warn his future gf's. Marie H: We've confronted his lies before, with evidence, and he lashed out as us. Telling us "fine, don't trust me!" and isolating himself from us. But arguments between friends are different than arguments between couples - we get over it faster. Time healed the wounds, but not his lying ways. He still continues to lie to us 1 on 1, but not when we're in a group, because he knows we'll confront him. And what happens if he becomes reclused and depressed because all of his friends treat him with such distrust? What if that depression leads to distructive behavior, even suicide? It's like walking in a mine field. Every post I've read here invariably leads to calls for confrontations, with an ultimatum given, and no real happy ending. None. Well, thats not true, the only happy people I see are those that LEAVE their CL/PL partner. But I'll follow your advice, if I ever meet someone close to him, I'll be poised and strict. POed: I like that idea. Incorporate the truth in normal conversations, and let him deal with the fallouts bit by bit. Thanks again.

Subject: Re:snooping - by: Emzaly

Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:25:34 -0400

I'm sorry to say I faced exactly the same situation. I found he had subscribed to dating sites saying he was available, etc, and i just assumed, 'he only lies about little things. he'd never cheat on me.' Our relationship eventually crumbled, because he got really weird. Turns out it was because he was living with his other girlfriend and i was clueless because he always had a reason why i couldnt come to his house etc. I was so stupid and it took 4 years for me to see that.